Garyneal says "You see, in the Greek the text is definitive and is totally unanswerable." Completely false! As a matter of fact the opposite is true. The Greek text makes it clear that Thomas is not calling Jesus Lord or God in this verse. In greek that are 4 cases, two of which are the Nominative Case(talking about someone) and Vocative Case(talking to someone). When Thomas says "Lord" and "God" they both appear in the Nominative case which mean Thomas was talking about his Lord and God, not talking to them. Here's a link with a very simple explanation on the different cases in Greek: http://www.kypros.org/LearnGreek/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=61
Frustrated with JW Bible study!
by ElizabethTravers 31 Replies latest watchtower bible
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FuzzyPaul
Dear Elizabeth ,
You are in a favorable position having a resource that guides you through the false reasonings of the Watchtower. Russell never had a goal of restoring the Christianity of the Bible. He stated that he wanted "To prove the Free-Masonry of the Bible." I was a JW from age 3 in 1962 to 2006. I have heard that several times from persons in a family with over a hundred year history in the WT and others so I know its true. That was something I noted but thought was spurious at the time.
When I learned that the Watchtower joined the United Nations - something they absolutely swore they would never do and those who did were spoken against in the harshest of terms - I could not believe it. I said to my wife, well that does it, the Watchtower is being run by the Free Masons now! I think the UN is another org to control the World and the Masons are all over it. Oops. The lost dog found his way home.
I had great diffi-cult-y unlearning some ideas. My mentor, a retired seminary prof, was batting 300 during my first studies with him and now bats 950. Christendom mostly has it correct. (Christendom is a derogatory term to a JW but means the domain of Christ - like kingdom is a king's domain - so what is wrong with being in Christ's domain?)
A name is given by God to indicate something about that individual. God changed Abram's name to Abraham when he was promised to be the Father of many great nations. Joshua, Moses successor, name means "Saviour". So does "Jesus" which is the Greek version of Yehoshua. Isaiah 9 says that the messiah would be called "God with us" and would be called mighty God, eternal father, wonderful counselor, prince of peace. That prophecy means Jesus would be called "Mighty God". Just like JWs say - he is a mighty god not almighty therefore ... but that is a distraction (like Leodardo says in Catch Me If You Can, pinstripes), the point Isaiah was making is that HE WOULD BE CALLED ...GOD!
The Catholic Church was especially hated by the WT in Russell's time and still is because the Catholic Church forbid one to be a Free-Mason. They misrepresent traditional doctrines shared by Catholic and Protestant groups. The differences are mostly in FORM of WORSHIP not substance in teachings.
During the Catholic Mass one recites :
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day he rose agin in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
That is so theologically sound and undeniable that it takes misrepresentation, twisted editing, obscure sources of dubious authority, rhetoric, to discredit.
One should review the Missal which has the standard parts of the mass in the front of the book and the content of each day's mass for the year. The Sunday mass has three long readings with an exposition on one. All I hear in Catholic services is Jesus Christ being taught, the Bible being taught and well at that, and God being honored above all. I hear very little self praise unlike the constant self-glorifying of the Watchtower.
I am a Southern Baptist. The difference is in governance of each independent congregation. The Southern Baptist Convention exists to pool resources to run Children's homes, support missionaries, and so-on. It is not a dictating, controlling, doctrine producing entity. We use it, it doesn't use or run us. The doctrine of Southern Baptists, and most all of the other Baptists, is found in the "Baptist Faith and Message" a small fold out tract sized document with over a thousand scriptures referenced. Google it, it is online.
The Baptist Faith and Message has none of the misleading filler found in Watchtower books to minimize the import of the Bible on a subject. The Watchtower leans heavily on their own words, even to the point of starting a quote of a Bible passage, closing the quotation marks inserting the WT idea, then reopening the quotation finishing the original passage's quote.
Over and over there are hundreds of Watchtower twists to the Bible's message. BUT THE BIGGEST WATCHTOWER ERROR is that they teach Salvation by Works. "Faith without works is dead." Faith produces good works, deeds, actions, behaviours. Works, deeds, actions, behaviours are external and can-not produce faith. An actor playing Hamlet is not Hamlet. He does not become what he acts out. Ephesians 2:8,9 has the greatest contradiction to WT version salvation. "Through no works of our own."
Love to all, Paul
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fokyc
Elizabeth:
Welcome to JWN; I wish you all the best in your quest.
You have been given plenty of very good advice, although I am afraid you are in a NO win situation!
JW's are there to convert YOU, not you convert them
fokyc
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garyneal
Blue Grass,
Concerning your comments about my take on John 20:28, all I have to say is that I will not dogmatically hold on to my conclusions if indeed they can be proven false as you claim. Since it is very late, I am going to bed now and I will research what you said some more tomorrow.
In the meantime, I must say that I have a difficult time coming to the same conclusions you came up with so perhaps you can help me to understand. I know that translating one language to another is not always one to one word translation and that you need to get the jist of it by understanding the rules of the source language. That said, a one for one translation of John 20:28 reads as "AND answerED THE THOMAS AND said to-Him THE Master OF-ME AND THE God OF-ME." My source can be found here.
Your web link does not seem to offer much to explain the nominative case and how it applies to the conclusions that you draw so I will have to perform further research to verify your claims.
At best, this is what I got concering the nominative case:
"Nominative: You already know it. Save for a simple example to prove you do, we don't need to go into detail: The man ate the potato. Here, 'the man' is in the nominative (the one performing the action "ate")."
Admittedly, I did not read it too thoroughly since I need to get to bed and I am tired. I will look into it some more tomorrow.
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Aussie Oz
Think of it as a sword fight Elizabeth.
(it's funny, another poster was featuring the trinity and JWs and i though of sword fights)
You thrust, they lunge, you dodge, they stab, your swords clash, clash, clash... mental picture of swash buckling swordsmen!
Each has favorite moves and scriptures to counter the others favorite moves and scriptures. They refer to the bible as a sword.
you will get nowhere, nor will they if you are strong enough. Eventually they hope you will 'tire out' first and they will be the victor.
They have a few dirty tricks and you need to find some too. The best ones are provable facts that cannot be denied by rational people. You will find plenty here, but beware! They are so blinkered that even those facts will bounce off most like a rubber stick.
welcome and good luck
Oz
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FuzzyPaul
Elizabeth,
Ask, What is God? That is, what does the term mean? What does the term "worship" mean? In the Bible's use Jesus is termed "GOD".
The passage quoted by Peter on Pentecost displays that Peter equated Jehovah with Jesus. In John, Jesus thanks his father that the father gave him, Jesus, HIS NAME. The name is it - it's meaning is what it is all about.
At the end of Matthew Jesus says "All authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me," NOT IN 1874, 1914, 1915, 1925, 1975 or any other date. AT THE TIME OF HIS ASCENTION HE HAD ALL AUTHORITY ALREADY. He then says, because he had all authority, "Therefore go and preach ...." His authority gave him the personal ability to command the process of spreading the gospel. 1 Corinthians says that Jesus rules until he ends all the effects of sin and Satanic rule. Jesus has had 100% of all authority since his ascension and keeps it until the thousand years is over and the great judgement occurs. Which great judgement happens AFTER the thousand years is over, after Satan is released and then cast into the Lake of Fire.
The Watchtower's resurrection during the thousand years has NO SUPPORT in scripture. They say that the second resurrection happens during "the thousand year judgement day". Pure rubbish. It happens after. Hebrews states, "It has been appointed for all men to die once and after that a judgement." ONE chance to side with GOD and his ways. THe Watchtower's resurrection is actually re-incarnation. In reincarnation one comes back to another life to finish the work of being perfected - "Reaching Nirvana" to some minds.
If one is resurrected from unconscious non-existance to stand before the Judgement Seat of God after which some are condemned, only to be sent back to a state of unconscience non-existeance is nonsense. What point is there to wake you up, tell you that you are unworthy of eternal life and then to be returned to unconscious non-existance. Soul is NOT the BODY. All the scriptures stating body, soul, mind , strength, spirit in any combination would have redundant terms. We are a mechanical body with a zest for enjoyment of life which is our soul and containing a spirit which spirit is immortal. Plato wrote in The Republic, "gymnastics is for the body like music is for the soul." Download The Republic from M.I.T. or any other site and search it for "Soul". A word is defined by its usage and its usage meant to most any Greek speaker and reader just that - love of life, enjoyment of life. We are not just a physical machine. "Soul" is used to describe physical life, emotional life, spiritual life, disembodied state, it believes, loves, loves the Lord, seeks the Lord, serves the Lord, has fleshly lusts, has physical appetite, sins, desires evil but is purified by obedience. ( As taken from Strong's on page 192 of the section entitled "Universal Subject Guide To The Bible.")
We are made in God's image. A spirit with a form to operate through. Nothing else makes as much sense. Hell would then be considered plausible from the view of Jesus parable of the Rich man in Hades, and other references. Gehenna is a term understood to mean more than the town dump. Josephus wrote a treatise on the Jewish belief in Hell contradicting many of the Greek thoughts on Hell or Hades. Hades, the God, never released his captive dead from Hades the place. Paul said that there would be a return of all from the place Hades to stand before a Judge from God which idea was not allowed in Greek thought. Read Josephus on that subject. Josephus wrote about 70 years after Jesus left. Jesus parable of The Rich Man In Hades would have been understood in the context of prevailing thought. That Hades is a place where the person exists after death of the body. That there is torment in some parts and worse torments in some of those parts. That is what people by and large believed. He did not contradict those thoughts like he contradicted prevailing thoughts in The Sermon On The Mount.
(The Watchtower's teachings on Hell were not originated by any of them. Their beliefs are from an essay by Thomas Baldwin Thayer which predates them. Such a long essay deserves an answer. Any doctrine of a hundred scriptures which is disprovable by any other one scripture is flawed and fails. Examination of THE TERMS, and word meanings to a person of the time when such thoughts were written is an absolute must. Hell and an eternal spirit easily fit into many passages from the death of the patriarchs in Genesis to Jesus preaching to the spirits in prison while he was in the grave. Peter wrote that.)
In The Sermon On The Mount he taught that: you heard that it was said that you should hate your enemies but don't do that, LOVE your enemies, show them kindness, care, pray for them. Do Jehovah's Witnesses as taught by the Watchtower pray for their enemies? Or care for them kindly? Such blessing in prayer is almost forbidden to a WT follower. I never heard it happen. Nor did I ever hear them pray, as comanded by Apostle Paul, for the "King" at any time in any way in any meeting, assembly, convention, or group setting. Rather the Watchtower plainly teaches one to Hate, just like David wrote that he hated his and GOD's enemies. Jesus taught a new way, to love not hate those enemies. The Watchtower plainly taught how they preferred hatred.
I pray for those who read this website. To leave the Watchtower and come to Jesus for salvation. There is no salvation in any one else, no other name has been given by which we must be saved. I pray for the effectiveness of the words that explain real truth. Jesus is The Truth - he said so. I pray for a change of mind for those who are still in the Watchtower, it is a long road out doctrinally, emotionally, to a new self-identity.
All their actions contradicts the fruitage of the spirit which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, self-control. A tree produces fruit according to its kind. A tree cannot choose what its fruit will be. God's spirit indwells one and one then has no choice - his behaviours are the fruitage of the Spirit of GOD. Those attributes can not be practiced consciously as if a behaviour could cause one to have God's spirit. God's spirit gives us ITS fruitage it is not our fruitage.
Wow, I have so many ideas proving the Watchtower wrong I can't stand it. I should write an essay and put it online at Randy Watter's site, Freeminds.
Regards,
Fuzzy Paul
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Black Sheep
John 20:28
They will want to refer you to other scriptures that they think backs up their version of Jesus. Don't get sucked in by this. It is a diversion tactic. Stay with John 20:28, it's surrounding text, grammar and context.
If they cannot explain why this scripture doesn't identify Jesus as Jehovah God, then the scriptures that they claim prove that Jesus is not Jehovah God, contradict John 20:28 and prove that the Bible is contradictory and is, therefore, a load of old cobblers, which I believe it is.
There used to be a very good talk on the net somewhere by Walter Martin on dealing with JWs on the trinity. See if you can find it. I haven't got time right now.
Cheers
Chris
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Chalam
Hello ElizabethTravers and welcome!
I am frustrated!! I am annoyed that every single verse I used from the book did not help! They appear to be bullet proof.
Been there a lot. Even if you can get them thinking for a moment with a particular verse, the light is normally quickly snuffed out.
Take my last lengthy encounter. We talk for hours, round and round. Finally, I asked "who is the Alpha and the Omega"? "Jehovah God" came the reply.
So I showed them the three entries for this name Revelation 1 Revelation 21 Revelation 22 and the clear proof that Jesus and the Father use the exact same name. One JW would not accept this and got quite irate. The other was most interested and said she would go and check it out :)
Next day she was back with some dude but I was out.
Finally, I caught up with them again a week or so later.
After hearing her "explanation" and another wasted morning they left. I asked the Lord about the situation and He said to read 1 Peter 2.
1 Peter 2:4-10 (New International Version)
The Living Stone and a Chosen People
4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— We go to Jesus, he is rejected by JWs but precious to us. 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. We become like Jesus, born of His Spirit. 6 For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame." Our trust is in Jesus, He is our Mediator before the Father. JWs trust is in the WT as their mediator and "association" with the "144, 000". 7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. Once again, Jesus is precious to us, we love Him. To JWs, Jesus is just a created angel, "a god", "everlasting father" and "mighty god". To is Jesus is God, Everlasting Father and Mighty God. But to those who do not believe,
"The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone," Jesus is the Capstone over the tomb of the second death of those who do not believe. 8 and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall." JWs (and many other groups) stumble and fall over Jesus. They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for. They disobey the message of the gospel, "Jesus is Lord", for which they were predestined.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Is there any hope this situation in terms of evangelism.
Ask the Lord what He wants you to do. Ask for His direction. Without Him you can do nothing John 15:5
Blessings,
Stephen
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moshe
The Trinty is a confusing doctrine- apparently designed over a 300 year period to pull together what looks like contradictory NT verses and make one unified dogma. Rather than get to the root of "why" the Bible has inspired such a muddy group of verses to explain the godhead, people just debate with what is in front of them. I used to make a monkey out of Trinitarian Christians 38 years ago- it was fun being a JW back then as 1975 was just a few years away! It's too bad I didn't run into somebody back then who knew how to make a monkey out of me over the topic of theism. It would have saved me a lot of grief and wasted work trying to figure out what God wanted me to do.