Well my son started a study with the witnesses and man was I pissed when I first heard about it but then I figured he would try to defend it with their crap lies and sure enough it happened so this is what we have discussed so far. He has started with the Trinity. this is long but if anyone can help me out I would be grateful. First he sent me this message,
Dad, (thats me)
Please dont get upset or offended but i found a scripture i know you belive in the trinity but this contridicts that ACTS 7:55 NIV says "but stephen, full of holy spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God". First thing that i noticed is that it says stephen was filled with holy spirit not that it was a person or being, also it says that he saw jesus standing at the right hand of god that sounds like two seperate people to me or beings
My reply back,
Son,
I don't get offended son but rather the opposite, I will discuss scripture with you anytime. Here is some things I came up with I hope this helps you understand how Christianity understands the trinity. And how the Witnesses twist it. It is long but I spent a good while doing this so please read it and follow it up by looking them up.
In the Old Testament God revealed Himself to His chosen people, the Israelites as I AM:
Ex 3:14-15 - God replied to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM
has sent me to you.” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: Yahweh, the God of your fathers,
the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever;
this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.
He also revealed Himself as ONE at Deuteronomy 6:4:
“Listen, Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One. Deut 6:4
This is also reiterated in the New Testament at the following scriptures:
“This is the most important,” Jesus answered:
Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One. Mark 12:29 (HCSB)
Then the scribe said to Him, “You are right, Teacher! You have correctly said that He is One, and there is no one else except Him. Mark 12:32
At 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 this statement is made concerning God:
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—as there are many “gods” and many “lords”—
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him. 1 Cor 8:5-6
However, at John 8:58 and at John 8:24 Jesus also referred to Himself as I AM:
Jesus said to them, “ I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am.” John 8:58
Therefore I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am [He] (bracketed text has been added by the translators for clarity) , you will die in your sins.” John 8:24
At both scriptures the Greek phrase "Eigo Eimi" is literally translated as I AM in all Interlinears, including the WTBTS's KINGDOM INTERLINEAR.
At John 8:24 Jesus claimed to be deity, but the Pharisees didn’t understand His meaning.
Throughout its history, the WTBTS has misrepresented the Trinity concept in order to make its denial of the doctrine plausible to reasonable people:
*** w72 2/15 104 How Is Jehovah Different from All Other Gods? ***
Certainly the God of such beauty of personality is no angry god of an eternal torment of hellfire, nor a grotesque three-headed trinitarian god, as Christendom's religions would have their members believe.
*** w71 10/15 627 Are the Churches Leading the Nations into Collision with God? ***
The majority of Christendom's churches say that there are three persons in one God, that he is, as it were, a 'three-headed' God. They teach that when Jesus died, God died.
*** w65 7/1 405 Death of a Dynasty ***
The leaders of Babylon the Great have represented God as a three-headed trinitarian monstrosity, an eternal-torment fiend, and have led the peoples of the earth to worship other false gods.
*** w65 11/1 667 Searching for and Finding God ***
For example, the trinity doctrine was a stumbling block. I had never seen a three-headed man and just could not bring myself to believe that the God I was to worship as my Creator was a God with three heads, which was my impression of the doctrine. Being taught the trinity nearly caused me to lose faith in a Supreme Being.
Pagan concepts of God are radically different from the doctrine of the Trinity. The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods who headed up a pantheon of many other gods. But these triads constituted three separate gods, which is utterly different from the doctrine of the Trinity, which maintains that there is only one God with three persons within God. Pagan practices, including polytheism (belief in more than one god, which is a doctrine the WTBTS promotes as evidenced in the NWT at John 1:1), predate Christianity by 2,000 years and were far removed from the part of the world where Christianity emerged. From a historical and geographical perspective, the suggestion that Christianity borrowed the Trinitarian concept from pagans is unfeasible.
It is interesting to note that many pagan religions taught the concept of a great flood and a messiah-like figure (Tamuzz) who was resurrected (see the WTBTS's MANKIND's SEARCH FOR GOD book reagrding flood legends).
*** g89 12/22 12 Do You Worship a Living God? ***
For example, the ancient Egyptians worshiped the trinity of Osiris, Isis (his wife), and Horus (his son). And the Hindus, even down to this day, worship a trinity made up of the three-headed Trimurti of Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva.
If the WTBTS uses a consistent method of reasoning, it must follow that the Christian doctrines of the flood, the Messiah (Jesus) and His resurrection are also pagan. Simply because pagans spoke of a concept remotely resembling something found in the Scriptures does not mean the doctrine was stolen from pagans otherwise one would have to conclude that the flood, the Messiah and the resurrection of Christ are also derived from paganism.
Trinitarians do not believe the Trinity is a God with three heads or a 'three-headed God'. They believe in three co-equal persons who are the nature, essence and being of God.
The doctrine of the Trinity is based on three lines of evidence:
1. There is only ONE true God.
2. There are three persons who are God.
3. There is a three-in-oneness within God.
EVIDENCE FOR ONE GOD
That there is one true God is the consistent testimony of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. It is a thread that runs through every page of the Bible. God positively affirmed through Isaiah the prophet:
This is what the Lord, the King of Israel and its Redeemer, the Lord of Hosts, says: I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but Me. Isaiah 44:6
Remember what happened long ago, for I am God, and there is no other; [I am]God, and no one is like Me. Isaiah 46:9
The oneness of God is also emphasized in the New Testament. In 1 Corinthians 8:4, for example, the apostle Paul asserted that “an idol is nothing in the world,” and that “there is no God but one.”
James 2:19 says, "You believe that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe—and they shudder." These and a multitude of other verses prove there is one - and only one - God.
EVIDENCE FOR THREE PERSONS CALLED GOD
On the one hand, Scripture says there is only one God. Yet in the unfolding of God's revelation to mankind, it also becomes clear that there are 3 distinctive persons who are God in Scripture.
The Father is God:
Peter refers to the saints "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the father" (1 Peter 1:2).
Jesus is God:
When Jesus made a post resurrection appearance to Thomas, Thomas said, " My Lord and my God (John 20:28). Jesus did not correct Thomas for this statement. Rather, Jesus said, “Because you have seen Me, you have believed. Those who believe without seeing are blessed.” John 20:29
but about the Son: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of Your kingdom is a scepter of justice. Heb 1:8
The Holy Spirit is God:
In Acts 5:3-4, Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn’t it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn’t it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!”
Lying to the Holy Spirit is equated with lying to God.
Each of the 3 persons, on different occasions is seen to possess the attributes of diety:
1. Omnipresence:
The Father:
“Am I a God who is only near”—[this is] the Lord’s declaration—“and not a God who is far away? 24 Can a man hide himself in secret places where I cannot see him?” —the Lord’s declaration. “Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” —the Lord’s declaration. Jer 23:23-24
The Son:
Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Matt 28:18
The Holy Spirit:
Where can I go to escape Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence? Psalms 139:7
2. Omniscience:
The Father:
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways! Romans 11:33
The Son:
But perceiving their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why are you thinking evil things in your hearts? Matt 9:4
The Holy Spirit:
Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. 1 Cor 2:10
3. Omnipotence:
The Father:
who are being protected by God’s power through faith for a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5
The Son:
Then Jesus came near and said to them, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Matt 28:18
The Holy Spirit:
by the power of miraculous signs and wonders, and by the power of God’s Spirit. Romans 15:19
4. Holiness:
The Father:
Lord, who will not fear and glorify Your name? Because You alone are holy, because all the nations will come and worship before You, because Your righteous acts have been revealed. Rev 15:4
The Son:
But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked to have a murderer given to you. Acts 3:14
The Holy Spirit:
and was established as the powerful Son of God by the resurrection from the dead according to the Spirit of holiness. Romans 1:4
5. Eternality:
The Father:
Before the mountains were born, before You gave birth to the earth and the world, from eternity to eternity, You are God. Psalms 90:2
The Son:
Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me.His origin is from antiquity, from eternity. Micah 5:2
He was with God in the beginning. John 1:2
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “the One who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.”
Rev 1:8
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. He laid His right hand on me, and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last, Rev 1:17
The Holy Spirit:
how much more will the blood of the Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to serve the living God? Heb 9:14
6. Truth:
The Father:
As He was teaching in the temple complex, Jesus cried out, “You know Me and you know where I am from. Yet I have not come on My own, but the One who sent Me is true. John 7:28
The Son:
“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
“The Holy One, the True One, the One who has the key of David, who opens and no one will close, and closes and no one opens says: Rev 3:7
The Holy Spirit:
And the Spirit is the One who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:6
Can anyone other than God have the attributes of God?
THREE-IN-ONESS WITHIN GOD
Matt 28:19 reads: Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father
and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
It is highly revealing that the word "name' is singular in the Greek, indicating there is one God, but three
distinct persons within God - the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not say, "into the names
[plural] of" or what is its virtual equivalent, "into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and
into the name of the Holy Spirit," as if we had to deal with three separate Beings. Nor does He say, "into the
name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (omitting the three recurring articles), as if "the Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit" might be taken as merely three designations of a single person. What He does say is this: "into
the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," first asserting the unity of the
three by combining them all within the bounds of the single name, and then throwing into emphasis the
distinctness of each by introducing them in turn with the repeated article (of).
In conclusion, Jehovah's Witnesses quote Deuteronomy 6:4 as proof that God is not a trinity:
“Listen, Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One.
However, why do they insist that the Hebrew word translated "one" in this passage (echad) must refer to an
absolute unity only, yet allow that the same word, when used in Genesis 2:24 to describe the marriage
relationship, must refer to a composite unity:
"This is why a man leaves his father and mother and bonds with his wife, and THEY become ONE flesh?"
Two people = ONE flesh; therefore, there is no way that the wording of Deuteronomy 6:4 excludes the Trinity:
rather, the Hebrew word used for "one" (echad) may well indicate the reference is to more than one person.
When Scripture is so unequivocal in its teaching that “No one can be a slave of two masters" (Matt 6:24), how
can James have two separate masters and serve Jesus with the same diligence as Jehovah?
James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ.... James 1:1
Jehovah's Witnesses misinterpret 1 Corinthians 14:33 in saying the Trinity cannot be biblical because God is
not a God of confusion. Simply because we don't fully comprehend a doctrine does not mean the doctrine is
false. For human beings to be able to understand everything about God, we would need to have the very mind of
god. Scripture affirms:
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and
untraceable His ways! Romans 11:33
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not My ways.” [This is] the Lord’s declaration.
“For as heaven is higher than earth, so My ways are higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:8-9
For now we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know
fully, as I am fully known. 1 Cor 13:12
Scripture is clear that human reasoning has limitations. Finite minds cannot possibly understand everything
there is to know about an infinite being. just as a young child cannot understand everything his father says
and does, so we as God's children cannot understand everything about God.
Consulting the context of 1 Corinthians 14:33 shows that the Corinthian church was plagued by internal
divisions and disorder, especially in regard to the exercise of spiritual gifts. Since God is a God of peace,
Paul says the church must model itself after God by seeking harmony in its services. By doing so honors God.
1 Corinthians 14:33 doesn't even remotely deal with the Trinity.
Then he replies back,
MATT 3:17 AND A VOICE FROM HEAVEN SAID THIS IS MY SON WHOM I LOVE WITH HIM I AM WELL PLEASED.
MATT 16:16 SIMON PETER ANSWERED YOU ARE THE CHRIST THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD.
MATT 4:3 SATAN HIMSELF SAYS YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD "THE TEMPTER CAME TO HIM AND SAID IF YOU ARE THE SON OF GOD TELL THESE STONES TO BECOME BREAD".
JOHN 20:31 BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN THAT YOU MAY BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE CHRIST THE SON OF GODANDHTAT BY BELIEVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE IN HIS NAME.
Then I replied back saying,
Jehovah is king of Isreal in ISA. 44:6 , and Jesus is identified as King of Isreal in Mark 15:32 and John 1:49, therefore Jesus must also share the name Jehovah. Additionally, Jehovah comes from the " I AM " of Exodus 3:14. The name in Hebrew is YHWH which is where we get Jehovah.
God says in Isa. 46:5 that no one is equal or even compareable to Him, and says in Isa, 48:11 that he will share his glory with no one, yet every name applied to Jehovah in the Old Testament is applied to Jesus in the New Testament or prophetically in the Old Testament.
God says inIsa. 45:23 that " to Me " -- Not "to my Son" or "to my Redeemer"-- but " to Me " every knee will bow, etc. Yet in Philippians 2: 9-10 , it says that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, etc... And Acts 4:12 says that there's no other name given that can save except the name of Jesus !
Finally, Jesus accepted worship ( Matt. 8:2 , 9 : 18 , 14:33 , 15:25 , 28:9 , 28:17 )
Knowing only Jehovah God is to be worshipped ( Luke 4:8 )
I hope this helps son I really do, I would never ever cause you to stray away from God as that would send me to hell for eternity and I will not allow that. I love you dearly and I would die for you in a heart beat, and so I would never lie to you about God and the reality of being free in God !
I was a youth pastor for almost two years, you could not hold that kind of position if you did not know your scriptures. Okay ?
Love Dad
If this was you what would you have done or said ?
Oldflame
