The Trinity, the biblical case, clear and simple. (page 2)

Perry

Philo, the Jewish philosopher, gave voice to the hybridization of Greek thinking and Jewish religion. He lived from 20 B.C.E. to 50 C.E.

Philo's works were enthusiastically received by the early Christians

Certain kinds of Christians...particularly those impressed with high-sounding sophistic allegorical rhetoric. He was the father of the Alexandrian tradition of exegisis that made its way to Rome.

The Jews and other pagans who first heard the Jesus sayings (orally) would AUTOMATICALLY fit them into a pre-existing frame or context of thought which included the Pagan DEMI-GOD.

So some Jews would assume Jesus was God because of similar Greek Gods? ? ? Are you serious? What possible Greek God would he be linked to?

To the Jewish mind Greek Gods were anathema. The fact of the matter is that many Jews accepted Jesus as God because he said he was God, as God he raised people from the dead , and he came back from the dead just exactly as he predicted that he would after presenting himself as the perfect Lamb sacrifice that the nation had been preparing for since the first passover meal.

stillajwexelder

yawn - hear oh ISRAEL THE LORD OUR GOD IS NOT ACTUALLY ONE GOD BYUT THREE IN ONE

Terry

Perry moaned:

The Jews and other pagans who first heard the Jesus sayings (orally) would AUTOMATICALLY fit them into a pre-existing frame or context of thought which included the Pagan DEMI-GOD.

So some Jews would assume Jesus was God because of similar Greek Gods? ? ? Are you serious? What possible Greek God would he be linked to?

Read the words I wrote and not the words as you re-interpret them. What you are doing is fitting my words into a pre-existing frame or context of thought.

Even the devout monotheistic Jews were exposed to centuries of Greek thought, language and religious ethos. Heracles (Hercules) was the son of God (Jupiter). He became a mortal. This is a context for both son of god and god-as-mortal. Surely you can see that.

Wikipedia:

The term "demigod", meaning "half god", is used to describe mythological figures whose one parent was a god and whose other parent was human.

Perry, are you avoiding our debate about the bible being a mess over on the other thread? I've got a ton of posts waiting for you.

The Jehovah Game: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/187872/4/The-JEHOVAH-game

Perry

Moaned? Where? Terry you are simply imagining things, including apparently hearing me moan.

The Jews and other pagans who first heard the Jesus sayings (orally) would AUTOMATICALLY fit them into a pre-existing frame or context of thought which included the Pagan DEMI-GOD.

Sorry Terry. The idea that devout Jews, after observing Jesus miracles would place him into a pagan context like that of Zeus, and then worship him as half man and half God in the Hellenistic tradition is not born out historically in the least.

Jesus was a devout practicing Jew as were all of the first believers. The Jews placed him into their own religio/cultural context ...because, well ....they had their own distinct religio/cultural context. The believing Jews knew Jesus to be God because he claimed to be so and their own sacred scriptures verified this.

Jesus showed Himself to be Son of God in the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies concerning the Messiah and God’s Son. The birth, life, death, and resurrection of Christ fulfilled every detail of the prophecy of the Old Testament Scriptures. There are hundreds of Old Testament prophecies that speak about the Messiah that were, or will be, fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Following are fifteen prophecies:

•Isaiah 9:6-7 with John 1:1-3, 14
•Isaiah 7:14 with Matthew 1:20-23
•Isaiah 37:31 with Matthew 1:1-2, 16
•Isaiah 11:10 with Matthew 1:1-2a, 5-6, 16
•Micah 5:2 with Matthew 2:1
•Hosea 11:1 with Matthew 2:14-15
•Isaiah 53:3 with Luke 23:26-41
•Zechariah 11:12 with Matthew 26:14-15
•Zechariah 11:12-13 with Matthew 27:3-10
•Psalm 22:16 with John 20:25
•Isaiah 53:5-6 with Romans 4:25
•Psalm 22:17 with John 19:33, 36a
•Isaiah 53:8, 11 with Matthew 28:2, 5-7, 9
•Isaiah 53:9 with Matthew 27:57, 59060
•Psalm 22:18 with Matthew 27:35

Especially significant are those prophecies that were fulfilled that were beyond Jesus’ possibly manipulative control— Born in Bethlehem - Born of a virgin - Descended from Judah - Descended from Jesse - Descended from David - Come out of Egypt (as a young child) - Be from Nazareth - Betrayed by a friend - Betrayed for exactly 30 pieces of silver - 30 pieces of silver returned - 30 pieces used to buy the potter’s field - No bones broken - Pierced with a spear - Resurrection

Jesus Himself claimed to be God and allowed men to worship Him. Had He been a just man, a great teacher, a worker of great miracles, had He not been divine, it would have been blasphemy to allow men to worship Him because God is the only One worthy of worship.” Not once, but many times, Jesus received the worship of men, an act of unspeakable blasphemy if Jesus was not divine, a shocking violation of the first commandment if he was not Son of God as claimed to be. John 8:58 records Jesus saying, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was, I AM,” and John 14:6-7, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Me.

IS. 9: 6 - his name shall be called Wonderful , Counsellor , The mighty God , The everlasting Father , The Prince of Peace .

Lo and behold, in seemingly complete contradiction to the Hebrew Shema.... a Hebrew man called God did appear around 700 years after this was written. Billions of people still call him God just like Isaiah predicted. There is just one God in all of this, one essence (however fantastic that may be) but three personalities.

So, you can see that there is in actuality ZERO influence from Greek or Roman gods. Jesus didn't claim (and neither did any other Christian) claim that Jesus was half god and half man like the pagan gods. In complete contradistinction to those surrounding cultures.... Jesus cllaimed to be, was predicted to be hundreds of years in advance, and was believed to be GOD HIMSELF.

It was all written way in advance just so that false arguments could be proven as such.

Terry

The Jews and other pagans who first heard the Jesus sayings (orally) would AUTOMATICALLY fit them into a pre-existing frame or context of thought which included the Pagan DEMI-GOD.

Sorry Terry. The idea that devout Jews, after observing Jesus miracles would place him into a pagan context like that of Zeus, and then worship him as half man and half God in the Hellenistic tradition is not born out historically in the least.

Jesus was a devout practicing Jew as were all of the first believers. The Jews placed him into their own religio/cultural context ...because, well ....they had their own distinct religio/cultural context. The believing Jews knew Jesus to be God because he claimed to be so and their own sacred scriptures verified this.

When you use the term "Jews" in such a monolithic manner it is already non-historical. The only thing uniting Jews into a semblance of solidarity was the Sacrificial System such as that in Jerusalem. Jews were remarkably diverse in their sectarian beliefs. (Diaspora Jews absorbed into regional hiding from Roman wrath after 70 c.e. became "invisible".)

Further, a purely historical and traditional Jew would speak and read Hebrew (the language of scripture). Yet, the translation into Greek was forced upon Judaism by necessity!! Judaism was in a pressure-cooker of cultural blending constantly eroding the very nature of what it meant to be a Jew.

I suppose you are going to deny there was any headway among the Jewish peoples as to Neo-Platonism and schools of philsophy?

How was it possible that the book of John begins with the most Greek and Pagan notion of LOGOS?

Perry

How was it possible that the book of John begins with the most Greek and Pagan notion of LOGOS?

Logos is a Greek word, everybody spoke Greek? Better than speaking to everyone in say early Chinese wouldn't you say?

Surely you are not going to try and place the idea of the creative word (God spoke the worlds into existence) after Plato and Socrates are you?

Think About It

JW's have alot of problems......believing in the Trinity is not one of them.

designs

Socrates, Plato- metaphysical thoughts on essence, substance.....Greek Bishops re editing the story of Jesus the Jew BINGO!

I think Perry may be close to the precipice of connecting the dots........

hamilcarr

If elohim in Gen 1 is no majestic plural, it has to refer to "two beings", not one being consisting of "three persons".

Mad Sweeney

There is, in my view, no such thing as an accurate description of God.

This may be the best, most concise religious statement I have ever read.

The Jews placed him into their own religio/cultural context ...because, well ....they had their own distinct religio/cultural context.

I don't think this is true. Jews of the period, as Terry points out, were as diverse or even moreso than the modern-day sects of Christendom. The unity Christians tend to ascribe to them is pretty much made-up.

As for the criticism of Chalam, I don't think it's necessary or appropriate. He seems to be sincere, kind, and respectful in imitation of Christ, which is something a lot of folks, Christian and otherwise, could learn from.

The Trinity, the biblical case, clear and simple.

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