to YOYO re: watchtower as a prophet

by dubla 24 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • dubla
    dubla

    yoyo-

    i started this new thread as you requested. we were discussing the various dates of armageddon, predicted by the wt.......ill start with your quote:

    The brothers were not predicting, but trying to understand Bible chronology and prophesy. They were not telling the reader what to believe, but to come to their own conclusions on the scriptures.
    to which i responded:

    "trying to understand bible chronology, and preaching your understanding to a whole group of people are two entirely different things yoyo. if they were merely "trying to understand"....then why did the masses of jws drastically change their lives in preparation for armageddon....repeatedly?"

    so that is the question i raise for you.......also: you say "they were not telling the reader what to believe", yet all of the witnesses believed the same thing about these dates for the end times. so youre telling me that the jw masses simply came up with the same "conclusions on the scriptures", coincidently, but not becuase of wt "predictions"? would any sane person believe this line of reasoning?

    aa

  • YoYoMama
    YoYoMama

    You are right in that many Witnesses chanched their way of lives in preparation for armageddon. As I understand, this only happened in 1975. But in this case I see things different from opposers of Jehovahs people, see I don't hold a grudge against my brothers. I remember talking with an older annointed brother, and the subject of 1975 came up. The brother looked towards the ceiling and said " Oh 1975, thanks a lot Fred!". It was a group of us there and we all laughed. But that sums it up, Brother Franz, got excited about 1975 because it made sense according to the understanding of Chronology at that time. But, see, not all Witnesses got pissed off and left the organization. Why is that?

    About the other dates, you through out several, 1881, 1914, 1925 etc. These were articles of the FDS explaining Bible prophesy. Each Witness could read the scriptures and reason for themselves.

  • JT
    JT

    so youre telling me that the jw masses simply came up with the same "conclusions on the scriptures
    --

    not only did all jw come up with the same "conclusions on the scriptures"
    they ALL GOT IT WRONG so much for a "Mulitude of counselors"

  • dubla
    dubla

    yoyo-

    But in this case I see things different from opposers of Jehovahs people, see I don't hold a grudge against my brothers.
    thats all fine and dandy yoyo, but whether or not you personally hold a grudge about 1975 isnt the point here, in fact it is completely irrelevant. the topic on hand is whether or not the wt "predicted" anything. you claim they did not, that they simply let others make their own conclusions about bible prophesy. my question was, if your claim is true, and the wt does NOT "predict" anything, then why did the jws ALL come to the same date for armageddon, namely 1975?

    About the other dates, you through out several, 1881, 1914, 1925 etc. These were articles of the FDS explaining Bible prophesy.
    and therefore by explaining what the prophesies meant to modern day humans, they were also predicting what the outcome of these prophesies would be, and when that outcome would take place. you cant get around this fact, no matter how hard you try. they claim to be gods channel to humans, then claim to decipher bible prophesy......how many "true blue" witnesses do you think would actually read these scriptures, and then come up with a different conclusion then what they read in the watchtower? none of course! this reasoning, again, is ridiculous.

    Each Witness could read the scriptures and reason for themselves.
    since you insist on continuing this line of reasoning, let me ask you this: since the witnesses can read the scriptures, and reason for themselves, then why the enforcing of "rules"? why disfellowship anyone for anything? perhaps one witness has read the scriptures on taking blood, and through their research and reasoning, has decided the wt is wrong about the blood issue, and therefore takes the transfusion willingly. what did this witness do wrong? according to you, each witness can "reason for themselves" what each scripture means, right? but without the watchtower to translate these scriptures and prophesies for the witnesses, they cant really do that can they?

    aa

  • seven006
    seven006

    oYo,

    Do you think we are all a bunch of idiots? A good majority of those on this board have been disfellowshipped for "reasoning for themselves." This semi-noncommittal technique of the good old Brooklyn boys is nothing but a cowardly attempt to cover their collective asses. They are masters of deception and use the fact that they can change their mind as quickly as they can change their underwear. They cover their blatant false prophecies by claiming they have found "new light" and all you worshipers of senile old men buy into it the second your highlighter hits the pages of the watchtower.

    The only freedom JW's have in "reasoning for themselves" is to justify your blind acceptance of what ever you are told by not looking beyond what the watchtower boys say and remaining ignorant to the truth found outside the JW publications.
    It is pure spiritual laziness and fear of being disfellowshipped for using your brain that restricts any real fact finding endeavors.

    The watchtower has said time and time again "not to try and reason for yourself." Trust the faithful and discreet slave and do not go outside what they tell you the truth is. Who do you think you are kidding here? The watchtower only deals in black and white when it comes to their policies except for instances where they can loose their ass in a law suit, then they flutter profusely in a total gray area fog. They depend on the laziness of their followers to just sit back and accept what they say no matter how often they golf putt their black and white stance into the gray area to cover their ass.

    There is not once single person including myself who was a JW before 1975 who did not buy into the fact that that was going to be the absolute last year of this system of things. If someone says they did not they are a damn liar!

    Get a clue YoYo, we are not the brain-dead child like followers you give your talk 5's too at your local Kingdom hall. We have exercised our human right to "reason for ourselves" and that little forbidden talent has put us where we are today. We do not continue to see one new light after another we all have seen the one true light that shines on the hypocrisy and deception of the watchtower society. As long as their followers remain the dim-bulbed sheep that they are, the little flickers of ass covering new light will continue to switch on and off as often and as blinding as they please.

    Don't talk to us like we are morons, we all heard the same thing as you. We just used our brains and saw beyond the bullshit.
    You might want to try and shift your efforts to the door to door work, I know you hate it like all of us did but at least you will be talking to people who don't have a clue about what you are saying. We know it all too well and you aren't going to convince any of us that your "new light" crap is worth anything.

    Take care and have a nice day.

    Dave

  • dubla
    dubla

    bttt for yoyo

  • YoYoMama
    YoYoMama

    Regarding 1975, I know some COs did predict that it would happen, but the Society said that it could and it could not. I understand that was misleading, because they should have ended all the rumors and just said "Let's leave things on Jehovahs hands".

    how many "true blue" witnesses do you think would actually read these scriptures, and then come up with a different conclusion then what they read in the watchtower? none of course! this reasoning, again, is ridiculous.
    You obviously already have a low viewpoint of the Witnesses. I would say 75% of Witnesses do read the scriptures to prove that the reasoning is accurate. I know I do.

    then why the enforcing of "rules"?
    They are enforcing the rules written in the Bible, like the elders of the 1st century christian congregation.

    why disfellowship anyone for anything? [quote]

    Oh, Witnesses are not disfellowshipped over anything. They are disfellowshipped over breaking Jehovahs laws and not repenting.

    [quote]perhaps one witness has read the scriptures on taking blood, and through their research and reasoning, has decided the wt is wrong about the blood issue, and therefore takes the transfusion willingly. what did this witness do wrong?

    Taking blood is not a conscience matter. It is a clear violation of Jehovahs law.
  • dubla
    dubla

    yoyo-

    You obviously already have a low viewpoint of the Witnesses. I would say 75% of Witnesses do read the scriptures to prove that the reasoning is accurate. I know I do.
    you missed what i was saying......namely, how many would come up with a different viewpoint/conclusion then the one presented to them by the society? you see, you contend that each witness should read the bible and "come to their own conclusions on the scriptures". by saying this, you are implying that some may come up with different views/conclusions from the societys, otherwise these conclusions wouldnt be "their own". do you see the difference?

    Oh, Witnesses are not disfellowshipped over anything. They are disfellowshipped over breaking Jehovahs laws and not repenting.
    again, you missed the point. the point i was making, is that if all witnesses have the right to reason on the scriptures, and come up with "their own conclusions", then they too could come up with "their own conclusions" about other issues, such as obstaining from blood, or what exactly is gods law for us now.

    Taking blood is not a conscience matter. It is a clear violation of Jehovahs law.
    according to who? according to the watchtowers views/conclusions from the scriptures yoyo; you are proving with this statement what ive been saying all along. it is not a "clear violation of jehovahs law", we could start a whole new thread on the blood issue, but it is a grey area at best, and it would be very easy for a witness to read the "blood" scriptures and come up with a different conclusion then the society has come up with on it......but a "true blue" witness wouldnt come up with a different stance, would they? if they did come up with "their own conclusion" about it, they would be instantly labeled an "apostate", correct?

    aa

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    1975

    We were both baptized in the fall of 1973, and the events and statements made concerning the date of 1975 are very important to u. Obviously we are aware of the controversy surrounding this date. We want to make a few things clear at the outset of this discussion. Prior to 1975 both of us felt that we were being told that the date carried a huge significance in Bible prophecy. Both of us have distinct recollections of being told that baptism and engaging in the preaching work were of critical importance, due to the short time remaining. However, at that time neither of us had doubts about the organization when this system did not end in 1975. Only on examination of the prophetic record presented above, when the date 1975 can be seen to fall into a larger pattern of predictions made by the Watchtower, did this date cause us to have serious doubts about what we had been taught in regard to it.

    It is true that the Watchtower did not ever flatly state that the end of this system of things was due in 1975. But a review of what was said, taken as a whole, lead to the inescapable conclusion that this was what was meant. Please bear with us through this discussion.

    “According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 CE” (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. 1966 p 28)

    “So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man’s existence.” (Ibid.)

    “How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make of this coming seventh period of a thousand years a sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants! This would be most timely for mankind. It would also be most fitting on God’s part, for, remember mankind has yet ahead of it what the last book of the Holy Bible speaks of as the reign of Jesus Christ over the earth for a thousand years, the millennial reign of Christ. Prophetically Jesus Christ, when on earth nineteen centuries ago, said concerning himself: ‘For Lord of the Sabbath is what the Son of Man is.’ (Matthew 12:8) It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the ‘Lord of the Sabbath’ to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man’s existence. (Ibid. p 30)

    “Hence, the fact that we are nearing the end of the first 6,000 years of man’s existence is of great significance.
    “Does God’s rest day parallel the time man has been on earth since his creation? Apparently so. From the most reliable investigations of Bible chronology, harmonizing with many accepted dates of secular history, we find that Adam was created in the autumn of the year 4026 B.C.E. Some time in that same year Eve could well have been created, directly after which God’s rest day commences. In what year, then would the first 6,000 years of man’s existence and also the first 6,000 of God’s rest day come to an end? The year 1975. This is worthy of notice, particularly in view of the fact that the ‘last days’ began in 1914, and that the physical facts of our day in fulfillment of prophecy mark this as the last generation of this wicked world. So we can expect the immediate future to be filled with thrilling events for those who rest their faith in God and his promises. It means that within relatively few years we will witness the fulfillment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the ‘time of the end’” (Awake 10/8/66 p 19,20)

    “The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these ‘last days’ will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ’s glorious 1,000 year reign.” (WT 5/1/68)

    “The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the ‘last days’ have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years at most remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God.” (Awake! 10/8/68 p 13)

    “There is another way that helps us confirm that we are living in the final few years of this ‘time of the end.’ (Dan. 12:9) The Bible shows that we area nearing the end of a full 6,000 years of human history.” (Ibid. p 14)

    “More recently earnest researchers of the Holy Bible have made a recheck of its chronology. According to their calculations the six millenniums of mankind’s life on earth would end in the mid-seventies. Thus the seventh millennium from man’s creation by Jehovah God would begin within less than ten years.
    “In order for the Lord Jesus Christ to be ‘Lord of the Sabbath day’ his thousand year reign would have to be the seventh in a series of thousand year periods or millenniums. (Matt 12:8 AV) Thus it would be a sabbatic reign.” The Approaching Peace of a Thousand Years. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1969)

    “So, as we draw close to the completion of six thousand years of human existence during this decade, there is a the thrilling hope that a grand Sabbath of rest and relief is in sight.” (Awake 10/8/71)

    This last quote was accompanied by a chart showing seven one thousand year periods beginning with man’s creation. The date 1914 is marked near the end of the sixth period. The seventh period is labeled “Millennial reign of Jesus Christ?” If the question mark was meant to convey the idea that this was speculation it was not clear from the context.

    The emphasis the Society put on the date can be seen from other examples of what it was telling the flock under its care:

    “In view of the short period of time left, we want to do this (pioneer service) as often as circumstances permit. Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before the 6000 years of man’s existence on earth is completed.” (Kingdom Ministry March 1968)

    “Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.” (Kingdom Ministry May 1974)

    “One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled prophecy shows that six thousand years of man’s existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that ‘concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.’ (Matt 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both day and the hour.” (WT 8/15/68)

  • Bang
    Bang

    Yoyo,
    This is from the official watchtower web-site less than one minute ago.

    HOW can we be sure that we are living at the time when God's Kingdom will take action against this present system of human rule? How can we know that we are very close to the time when God will bring an end to all wickedness and suffering? ......((((wars and wars, blah blah blah)))...... How comforting, yes, how inspiring it is to know that God really does care and that soon he will put an end to all wickedness and suffering! How thrilling it is to realize that the fulfillment of those glorious prophecies is but a short time off!
    Like fresh horseshit isn't it, if you know what I mean, but JW bible study may not explain things like that, so I'll interpret that tongue (edify for you).

    The horse is a symbol of pride - and we shouldn't eat (become like) the horse, it's not good (clean) for us. Although it has four legs and chews the cud (though quicker than some - and we know how rash JW scripture understanding is), it does not divide the hoof (can't really go into the hoof now). But the dung produced by this proud animal makes for useful preaching, promoting growth (but best broken down). In a fresh state it provides remarkable growth to the plant that grows in the dark.

    It's absolutely marvelous how God speaks to us through nature, isn't it, who needs a bible?
    You know, people weep about JWs.

    Bang

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