Jordan, your reply sounds reasonable and thought-out. Also to be mentioned is the fact that those so "marked" in the JW's are not just elders or ones in the leadership. The statistic is the entire group, wheras the stat for the Catholics is just the priests.
Pedophiles in your congregation??
by ziddina 56 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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dissed
Thank you so much for your interest Jordan12 and for replying to my comment.
That sample is probably quite accurate, unless the CO was misleading to me. I don't know why he would. I would agree with your assessment that there might be as many as 12,000 'unreported' molesters in the USA congregations.
You know as well as me, why I can't reveal more information on that congregation I mentioned. The WTS advised the Elders not to report it. The point is, the person was DF'd and NO investigation by the proper authorities was inacted to confirm if anyone else was molested. The Elders and the WTS should not have made that choice for the authorities. He is now re-instated, and no one in the congregation is aware of his past problem, except for the Elders. How is that protecting the flock? Its not. That's the problem with the confidential reckoning of the WTS.
I was speaking of the WT policy of keeping it confidential, as a cover up plan, which does more to protect the WTS than potential victims. And I agree with you, we are all culpable in this cover up. That's one reason why I'm here, to expose this and do my part to change it.
This is only one reason why the WTS has had to pay millions in settlements to victims, with probably more to come. I guess you were not aware of that fact.
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dissed
And sorry, I just wanted to add this point.
In both of the congregations I mentioned, NO ONE knows anything about the molesters, except for the Elders and those families affected, let alone the public.
The WTS policy of ' keeping it quiet' is a very effective tool, no? That would explain why few have heard about these covered up atrocities. Multiply that by the 1,000's of other congregations and you can see why few JW's know much about this, nor the general public.
How could they?
Child molesters in the WTS Congregations is one dirty little secret we need to get out, wouldn't you agree?
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ziddina
I find it absolutely hilarious that jordan12 "quote-mined" a few comments that were meant "tongue-in-cheek" and treated them as tho they were absolutely serious...
"Quote-mining" and setting up "strawmen" [specious...] arguments - he certainly is following in "Mother's" footsteps...
Going into a Wiccan-style trance, here.... May he be drawn ever more deeply in; may he lose his friends and relatives to his loyalty to the cult; may he gain status and position within the cult so as to blind him to the freedom outside, freedom from short-sighted, primitive Middle-Eastern sheepherders' superstitions...
May his cultish MENtality feed upon itself and strengthen itself, to exalt itself over all that he holds dear...
May one or more of those near and dear to him bring forth the very problems with the cult that he sneers at in derision...
Zid
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jordan12
That sample is probably quite accurate, unless the CO was misleading to me. I don't know why he would.
I don't doubt that the CO would tell the truth. I do doubt whether you would, in view of the way you misrepresent what I wrote (see below) But even if what you say were true, how on earth could you possibly know that the one circuit was representative of the whole country? Incidentally, even if it were, it would still be less than half what Silentlambs claimed and about a quarter of the rate amongst Catholic clergy.
It would be wonderful if we could say that there are never any cases among Jehovah's Witnesses, but unfortunately that is impossible to achieve. We have no way of knowing what is going on in people's minds and what they do in private, when other congregation members aren't there. I do believe, though, that it happens a lot less frequently than among the population in general.
I would agree with your assessment that there might be as many as 12,000 'unreported' molesters in the USA congregations.
You're putting words into my mouth. I didn't say that there might be that many. I merely said that if what you said was true and the circuit you describe was a representative sample, there would be 12,000 persons on the child-protection list. I also said that I thought the true figure was likely to be much less.
Furthermore, I did not say that I believed those cases to be unreported. Many cases have already been reported to the police, since that is what is required in most US states. Failure to report is illegal in those places and yet no elder or congregation has every been found guilty of a crime like that. Additionally, some on the list were convicted of child molestation before becoming Witnesses. What would there be to report?
I've also pointed out that it isn't a list of proven molesters. It could include the names of persons who are the object of unverified accusations. It could include people who, as teenagers had sex with an underage girlfiriend a couple of years younger.
So I most certainly did not say that there might be 12,000 unreported molesters among Witnesses in the USA, as you claim.
When I read your first post, I was willing to suspend disbelief about what you said. First, that there would be that many persons on the child protection list in your circuit, and second that your CO would tell you about it. I thought well maybe, it's just possible. But when you distort my words, I'm afraid you lose credibility. If you can't get something straight when it is right in front of your eyes, then you either have serious difficulties in understanding English or you're being dishonest. Either way, I see no reason at all to take anything you say seriously.
You know as well as me, why I can't reveal more information on that congregation I mentioned.
I'm not sure I do. What would happen if you did? And whatever would happen, isn't it worth it, if protecting the children is your only real objective?
I certainly don't know why you can't tell us how you know this while claiming that only the elders know about it. Are you an elder? If you are, what are you doing serving as an elder if you don't agree with the Society's policies?
The WTS advised the Elders not to report it.
How do you know? Why should I believe that?
The point is, the person was DF'd and NO investigation by the proper authorities was inacted to confirm if anyone else was molested.
How do you know?
The Elders and the WTS should not have made that choice for the authorities.
The way I understand it, the elders are instructed by the Society to comply with reporting requirements. If the state makes a law on reporting, the elders will comply with it. Do you know the reporting requirements for your state? What state do you live in? We can look it up.
I know of no religious or professional counselling organization that has a blanket policy of reporting all cases to authorities when not legally required to.
Furthermore, the victims are adults now. They could have made a report if they wanted one made. If someone commits a crime against you, then if anyone should make a complaint to the authorities, it is you. It's not your church's job to make the report for you. And, if the victims don't want to make a report, should the elders really go against their wishes?
He is now re-instated, and no one in the congregation is aware of his past problem, except for the Elders. How is that protecting the flock? Its not. That's the problem with the confidential reckoning of the WTS.
I think you know very well that the elders can't just tell everyone what he did. What legal or Biblical basis would they have for doing so? They have to protect the congregation by monitoring the person closely and ensuring he has no unsupervised access to children.
I was speaking of the WT policy of keeping it confidential, as a cover up plan, which does more to protect the WTS than potential victims.
I'm not aware of anyone having been molested by a reinstated former child molester. I think it's more a product of someone's fertile imagination than a scenario that actually happens. Apparently, then, the policy works perfectly well in practice.
And I agree with you, we are all culpable in this cover up.
Except I didn't say that we are all culpable in this cover up. You're putting words into my mouth again.
If you confess a crime to your lawyer or your therapist, it isn't a cover-up if they don't go to the authorities. It's their professional duty. Even child protection charities don't always report what they know to the police. That isn't a cover up. They have to balance a number of factors, including their legal responsibilities of confidentiality, possibility of defamation cases, and other factors.
That's one reason why I'm here, to expose this and do my part to change it.
So, to get this straight. You know a crime was committed, and instead of reporting it to the police, you're campaigning for the Watch Tower to change its policies and report it. If you want them to do it, why won't you do it?
This is only one reason why the WTS has had to pay millions in settlements to victims, with probably more to come. I guess you were not aware of that fact.
I'm aware that there have been a few out-of-court settlements. Maybe a couple of dozen. Out of a million Jehovah's Witnesses in the US. It's hardly the pandemic that it's been made out to be. In any case, the settlements all concerned cases that took place before the more rigorous procedures were introduced in 1997. I don't believe that there's been a settlement made in any claim relating to alleged cases after that time. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong ...
It's not a "fact" that the Society have had to pay millions; that is pure conjecture. Saying that there is "probably more to come" is also an opinion, rather than a fact.
I also understand that so far everyone who has refused an out-of-court settlement and taken their case to court has lost.
In both of the congregations I mentioned, NO ONE knows anything about the molesters, except for the Elders and those families affected, let alone the public.
Well, if you report it then presumably that will rectify the situation.
The WTS policy of ' keeping it quiet' is a very effective tool, no? That would explain why few have heard about these covered up atrocities. Multiply that by the 1,000's of other congregations and you can see why few JW's know much about this, nor the general public.
I'm not sure what exactly you want the Society to do. You mean you want them to announce that someone has been accused of child molestation? I do not know any religious or other organization that has a policy like that, for very good reasons. Not even Silentlambs do that! Apart from the legal problems that would entail, there are practical concerns too.
Suppose a man wants to get baptized. He has committed some form of sexual offence in the past. If he tells us, we're going to announce it to the congregation ... do you think he's going to tell us?
Do you think that someone who has become involved in that type of crime is going to tell the elders about it if they can't be sure that it will be kept confidential? Isn't it better that someone in the congregation knows rather than no-one? The elders can't monitor things if they don't know about them.
As for victims, it is hard enough for them to come and talk to someone as it is. Wouldn't it discourage them from coming forward if they thought that the elders were going to broadcast the facts to the congregation and go to the authorities?
I really don't think you've thought this through sufficiently.
How could they?
Child molesters in the WTS Congregations is one dirty little secret we need to get out, wouldn't you agree?I don't believe that it's a secret at all. Everyone knows that child molesters exist in the community and that they sometimes join religious organizations. Sometimes they manage to control their proclivities, sometimes they don't. I know it's sick, but it's a reality. A number of articles in The Watchtower and on the Society's website have frankly acknowledged that these situations exist in the congregation.
Furthermore, the Society's policies on how matters are handled have been published in The Watchtower and on the website, as well as in letters to the congregations. There's nothing secret about that either.
Admittedly, some Witnesses may be a bit naive about the subject, particularly if they have not read the Watchtower articles about the subject.
But is it really about helping Witnesses and protecting their children? Some who are critically inclined might think that your real agenda was to try to use isolated cases of child abuse within the organization to try to discredit the whole religion. They might think that if you were really interested in helping Witnesses and their children, you would do so in a way that shows greater respect for their chosen faith and religious sensitivities.
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mind blown
If Bill Bowen (SilentLambs) was such a lier...why hasn't the WTS used their well paid attorneys to sue him or shut his site down?
It's totally DISGUSTING to think that an organization who claims to be Jehovah's messengers would even put in print..." if a state doesn't make it mandatory to report the CRIME OF CHILDREN they don't have to"!
As said before...it's a clear case.....let the proper professionals handle the cases with professional investigators..and law...obey the laws of the lands.....in fact, it's a UNIVERSAL LAW OF CONSCIOUS, child sex abuse is not to be tolerated by anyone....the two witness, three witness DID apply not too long ago...and that applied to ADULTS...notice if a brother has something against you.....
I hear this excuse from many of you....oh well, it happens in all the other religions. Actually, JWs are a smaller group...so of course their are going to be more among the Catholics with sex abuse....Oh well, I guess the CHILD asked for it.....or dress wrong....Oh well, it's made up in the child's mind....Oh well, there's a cleansing of the molesters in the Cong....(there will be a cleansing from the top for not taking).Oh well, even though we have problems....we are not the worst of the worst...REALLY? You are to be unblemished among the nations.....as an example to his name! You have become like the other religions making foul excuses for many things...I was molested by a Jehovah's Witness brother.....as a very young soul....I was victimized....my childhood damaged.....there should have NEVER BEEN two witness, three witness policy when it comes to CHILD SEX CRIMES, PERIOD! It's not like adultry, smoking....etc....what kind of moral, god like, concisous is this. Maybe if you knew the filthy details of my victimization, it would become more real to you.....instead of spewing your coldhearted comments.....
What part of...."They did not go to the authorities" do you not understand?
What part of...."It's totally DISGUSTING to think that an organization who claims to be Jehovah's messengers would even dare put in print..." if a state doesn't make it mandatory to report SEX CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN, they don't have to"!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/ns/night...
Evil deeds of one person? Evil deeds on only a few? Really?
Even if cases were mishandled..do you think they (GB or Elders) would ever say anything to the victims? Do you think Elders feel repentful/sorry for mishandling the cases.....maybe they should get DF by God for mishandling cases....but I guess that's why the WTS is paying out...for settlements....and setting gage orders....
No worries, I will not return to your site...I'm rather disgusted by many of your attitudes. Matthew 19: 14 ( the irony) -
jordan12
If Bill Bowen (SilentLambs) was such a lier...why hasn't the WTS used their well paid attorneys to sue him or shut his site down?
How would I know? It doesn't mean that the site isn't full of lies. You only have to take a cursory look at his site to see that it is. For instance:
- "Brother Griest - MURDERER" (except the murder was committed 17 years before he converted to Jehovah's Witnesses)
- "Sister West Child Murderer" (except she's not and never was a Jehovah's Witness)
- "Brother Proulx kills" (except that he was not a Witness)
- Ditto for Mark Barton, Christian Longo, Robert Bryant.
- "Most cases that involved the murder of a family by the father in recent years have had JW connections." (Absurd. There are reportedly 500 such cases a year in the USA - Silentlambs mentions about 14 cases worldwide in a 15-year period, the majority of which did not involve Jehovah's Witnesses anyway.)
- "In effect the victim is accused of lying and now he/she is guilty until he/she can prove they are telling the truth by producing either people who watched it happen or photos as tangible proof." (False and ridiculous. No publication or letter of instruction to elders has ever said any such thing.)
- "The requirement for two witnesses means to the same event, not two separate occasions" (complete lie, easily refuted by looking at elders' textbook)
- "Public relations representatives for the Watchtower Organization have stated to media they will now take witnesses to separate incidents and take action in congregations. This became a policy instituted when silentlambs.org pressed the issue on child abuse." (So how come the policy is written in the 1991 elders' manual, ten years before Silentlambs came into existence?)
I t's totally DISGUSTING to think that an organization who claims to be Jehovah's messengers would even put in print... " if a state doesn't make it mandatory to report the CRIME OF CHILDREN they don't have to"!
It's not as simple as that. There are legal and common-sense reasons why the Society doesn't have a blanket policy of reporting all abuse, except if legally necessary. Why do you think no other church has the policy you want? Why do you think that professional counselors' associations don't have such a policy? Why don't even child protection agencies have a blanket policy of reporting all cases?
- Would you report abuse, for instance, against the wishes of victims who are now adults?
- Would you report a 17-year-old boy who had sex with his 15-year-old girlfriend?
- Have you considered that the policy you are suggesting would deter perpetrators (and even some victims) from telling the elders what happened? How is that going to help?
As said before...it's a clear case.....let the proper professionals handle the cases with professional investigators..and law...obey the laws of the lands.....
We do obey the laws of the land - meticulously. If victims or their parents want the case investigated by law enforcement, then they're free to report it.
in fact, it's a UNIVERSAL LAW OF CONSCIOUS, child sex abuse is not to be tolerated by anyone....the two witness, three witness DID apply not too long ago...and that applied to ADULTS...notice if a brother has something against you.....
The two-witness requirement basically concerns whether a judicial committee will be formed, with the unrepentant abuser disfellowshipped. Since other religious organizations don't disfellowship abusers whether there is one, two or ten eye-witnesses, I think you'd have to agree that Jehovah's Witnesses are still streets ahead of other churches.
I hear this excuse from many of you ... oh well, it happens in all the other religions. Actually, JWs are a smaller group...so of course their are going to be more among the Catholics with sex abuse....
Well of course it happens in all religions. It also happens among people with no religion. Can you propose any way of ensuring that it never happens? I can't, short of following everyone in the religion around with video cameras.
I think the evidence presented in previous replies makes it quite clear that abuse happens a lot less frequently among Jehovah's Witnesses than, say, among Catholic clergy.
Oh well, I guess the CHILD asked for it.....or dress wrong....Oh well, it's made up in the child's mind....
None of Jehovah's Witnesses' publications or internal documents has ever said anything of the sort.
Oh well, there's a cleansing of the molesters in the Cong....(there will be a cleansing from the top for not taking).Oh well, even though we have problems....we are not the worst of the worst...REALLY? You are to be unblemished among the nations.....as an example to his name! You have become like the other religions making foul excuses for many things...
You're not being reasonable. There is no way for any organization to know what its members are doing all the time. Abuse is considerably less frequent among Jehovah's Witnesses than in the population in general. Jehovah's Witnesses have an excellent child protection policy. Our policies don't apply to clergy only, but the whole congregation (unlike other churches). We have scrupulously followed legal requirements (unlike many other churches). We disfellowship unrepentant abusers (unlike most other churches). Repentant abusers are removed from all positions of trust. When there has been a case, the congregation is warned by a talk (unlike other churches). We keep a central register to prevent abusers simply moving to another congregation (unlike other churches).
I was molested by a Jehovah's Witness brother.....as a very young soul....I was victimized....my childhood damaged.....
That is appalling, but that is the fault of your abuser, not the congregation.
there should have NEVER BEEN two witness, three witness policy when it comes to CHILD SEX CRIMES, PERIOD!
Are you saying that everyone accused of child abuse is guilty? I think you'd soon change your mind if you or a loved one were falsely accused of abuse.
It's not like adultry, smoking....etc....what kind of moral, god like, concisous is this. Maybe if you knew the filthy details of my victimization, it would become more real to you.....instead of spewing your coldhearted comments.....
I'm sorry you were victimized. No-one should have to go through that. But I think your anger would be better directed toward the perpetrator rather than the congregation.
If you feel your abuser should be reported to the police, why don't you report him?
What part of...."They did not go to the authorities" do you not understand?
I understand perfectly. What I don't understand is why you don't go to the authorities, but you want them to.
What part of...."It's totally DISGUSTING to think that an organization who claims to be Jehovah's messengers would even dare put in print..." if a state doesn't make it mandatory to report SEX CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN, they don't have to"!
Please see above.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21917798/ns/night...
What is your point? That a Witness can be a child molester? Nobody disputes that. The perpetrators were disfellowshipped and the crimes were reported to the police by the victims. That is the way it should be. If someone commits a crime against me, then I am the one who should report them to the police, not my church.
Evil deeds of one person? Evil deeds on only a few? Really?
Actually, there are very few cases. Silentlambs claims to have reported 300 Witness abusers to the police in a five-year period - an average of one a week. Where are they? Having gone to all the trouble of locating them and reporting them to the police, they suddenly "forgot" to put the names and details of the trials on their website, and instead put up stories about people who aren't even Jehovah's Witnesses and never were!
In countries where the law requires a report to police (e.g. Canada), a report is always made. Have we seen a much higher incidence of convictions for child molestation among Witnesses in Canada than in the USA? I think not.
Even if cases were mishandled..do you think they (GB or Elders) would ever say anything to the victims? Do you think Elders feel repentful/sorry for mishandling the cases.....maybe they should get DF by God for mishandling cases....but I guess that's why the WTS is paying out...for settlements....and setting gage orders....
If they've mishandled the cases but are sorry, Jehovah will forgive them.
With regard to settlements, there have been a handful -- tiny number compared to the figure of over 1,100,000 Witnesses in the USA. These concerned isolated cases before 1997, when the tighter policy on child abuse was brought in. I don't think we'll be seeing many more.
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bluecanary
Hi, Jordan. I posted this on another thread you were on but figured you probably missed it. I posted a thread a while back that discusses what, for me, is the reason I can't believe the JWs are the true religion. I'd love to get your thoughts on the subject, if you're so inclined. Welcome to the board.
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truthseekeriam
As a mother of a child that was molested in this religion...Jordan12 is creeping me out and making me a bit angry!!
I'll be good and not blow up..but I just had to say something.
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flipper
JORDAN 12- You mentioned that there are currently 700,000 registered sex offenders in the United States . But that doesn't account for many life-long sex offenders who may have NOT had to register before the laws were made years ago that they legally HAVE to register. For some of these sex offenders who were charged 20 to 30 years ago and even served hard prison time - the statue of limitations ran out BEFORE Megan's Law was passed so they weren't legally REQUIRED to register as a sex offender. So how many thousands of THOSE type of offenders are running around unrestrained ?? A case in point is someone we know on the board tried to expose a former child molesters court records ( which was public access ) to the body of elders in her congregation- she was maligned and scolded by the elders for gossipping and threatened with DFing if she informed JW parents in her congregation about the child molester . What's wrong with this picture ? EVERYTHING.
Bottom line is Jehovah's Witnesses and the WT society prefer to protect their own " perceived " outward reputation - than protecting ANY young people in their organization