Jesus is Not Michael

by JosephMalik 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    You all know that I argued this the other way and could not get good answers to Daniel chapter 12. But if you see Michael as performing a function much like John the Baptist did and how the Jews believed that Elijah must come first then Michael's function of standing in advance of the return of our Lord for a short time prior to the resurrection of the dead makes perfect sense. And it also gives a slightly different meaning to the words: " and what shall be the sign of thy coming, (events that take place after the standing up of Michael) and of the end of the world?" (Christs return or presence.) So here are some notes that I made and you can draw your own conclusions as to the real identities of Jesus and Michael.

    The PreHuman Christ and Michael working together

    Dan 10:5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude. 7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.

    Michael was an assistant to the PreHuman Christ

    Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

    The Resurrected Christ in Vision

    Re 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

    Re 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

    My Conclusion

    When examined like this there can be no doubt that Jesus is not Michael. The Revelation draws heavily on the book of Daniel and there is no mistaking who is who in these texts since we can easily see the proof in the texts themselves. We do learn then from Daniel that Our Lord had assistants that helped him in times past and the later assistants that appeared to the Apostles for him at Acts 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. So we should not be surprised to learn that such assistants would also help him in the future like Michael who already proved himself worthy would in Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

    Sorry for any confusion that I may have caused.

    Joseph

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    You are doing the same thing as the WT. Only presenting the points supporting your main point. You need to state why the WT feels that Michael is Jesus as well.

  • daniel-p
    daniel-p

    "Jesus is not Michael" is probably one of the most boring, irrelevant issues in Christian theology. Yawn.

  • Inkie
    Inkie

    The WT teaches that Michael is Jesus because at 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4, it states that Jesus will descend from heaven "with" an arkangel's voice, concluding erroneously that Jesus has an arkangel's voice rather than Michael preceeding Jesus' arrival "with" a trumpet's voice announcing his arrival. Any King in ancient times arrived with trumpets being blared annoucing the King's coming and arrival and upon arrival--his presence.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Inkie,

    Nowhere does that verse In 1 Thess. contradict anything shown in my post. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: This is simply more detail in addition to it. And this is why I did not bother to go over the WT view again. And what Kings did in times past does not invalidate or alter in any way what Paul taught.. But thanks for bringing it up since some may not know what they teach.

    Joseph

  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    If you think this is all a "yawn", I suggest you read "Jesus for the Non-Religious" by John Shelby Spong.

    Have you read this, Joseph? or its precedent, "Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes"?

    Here's one chapter, as a teaser:

    http://www.filesend.net/download.php?f=06bf15d98dd43d36491ce3512bdc210a

    Wait 20 seconds for the "Download" button to appear.

    Doug

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Jesus is Not Michael

    Agreed!

    "Jesus is not Michael" is probably one of the most boring, irrelevant issues in Christian theology. Yawn.

    I disagree. How are you going to be a Christian if you don't know who the real Christ is?

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • designs
    designs

    Well you could stop believing in the fictionalized view of Jesus presented in the Trinity

    Actually go into any Church and look at the Jesus portrayed in their literature. Its usually the most European looking Hunk or Sissy you could imagine. Jesus got lost to legends a long time ago....sigh, but you can still do a little good each day.

    Shalom aleichem

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Revelations borrows heavly from Daniel AND 1Enoch, and BOTh show Jesus to NOT be Michael and show that Mikey is ONE of the archangels.

    Regardless of one's view on the Trinity, the very agruments used to "dispell" the Trinity by the WT are the same used to dispell the view that Jesus is Michael.

    We can accept the Trinity that Jesus is the personification of essence and quailities of God ( God the Son) or we can accept that Jesus is the Son of God, the only being begotten by God.

    Both indicate the special uniqueness of Jesus.

    Saying that Jesus is Michael, ONE of the archangels, with NO biblical proof, is downgrading not only his importance but his message and to an extent, our ability to be saved.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    You all know that I argued this the other way and could not get good answers to Daniel chapter 12.

    That is because you were trusting in yourself that you were wise, dear JMalik (may you have peace!), and leaning on your own understanding... something none of us should ever do, particularly with regard to matters like. We should ALL take great care in what we are sharing with others with regard to things pertaining to God and Christ. To do that, then, we must trust in the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... which we do by trusting in the One whom HE sent forth, the Holy Spirit and Holy One of Israel, His Son and Christ, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. For that One is the ONLY One who can lead ANY of us... into ALL truth.

    the only being begotten by God.

    You are only telling part of the story, dear PSacto (may you also have peace!). The way you phrase it here, one of two things appear to be meant: that either my Lord was God's only begotten son (he was not)... or that he was begotten by God alone (he was not). To take the first presumption first we must look at Abraham:

    Just as Isaac is called Abraham's only-begotten son, Isaac was only such by means of Abraham's free wife, Sarah. Abraham begat no other sons by Sarah. Abraham did, however, beget another son by the slave girl Hagar, Ishmael. And Ishmael was Abraham's only-begotten son by Hagar. Abraham also had other sons... by his wife Keturah (after Sarah's death). Yet, Isaac is called his "only-begotten son." Thus:

    "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promisesoffered up his only begotten [son]..." Hebrews 11:17

    Like wise, my Lord was God's only begotten son by "Sarah", God's woman and "free" wife, Jerusalem Above, who is the spirit realm. The Most Holy One of Israel had another son, however, Adham, whom He begat with "Hagar" who is the earth, or physical realm:

    "Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God." Luke 3:38

    Thus, my Lord is His only-begotten son by Sarah [Jerusalem Above], the spirit realm... at the time the verse was written. Since that time, the Most Holy One of Israel has "begat" other "sons"... by means of His holy spirit... THROUGH that son:

    "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God." Romans 8:14

    The second premise is that God "begat" my Lord alone (i.e., by Himself)... making him "only-begotten" by God. That, too, is an error and false. My Lord was indeed born... and twice. In the opposite order of us. He, first, in spirit... by means of the Free Wife, the Woman, Jerusalem Above. And just as she is OUR mother (those who are conceived in and ultimately born as a result of holy spirit)... she is HIS mother:

    "Then I witnessed in heaven an event of great significance. I saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon beneath her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant, and she cried out in the pain of labor as she awaited her delivery. ... She gave birth to a son, a male child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And the child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne." Revelation 12:1, 2, 5

    "But Sarah, the free woman, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. And she is our mother." Galatians 4:26

    "Then the dragon became angry at the woman, and he declared war against the rest of her children--all who keep God's commandments and confess that they belong to [Jesus]." Revelation 12:17

    My Lord is the SON... of God's LOVE... for "Sarah"... Jerusalem ABOVE... which is the spirit realm. It is FOR her... and WITH her... that my Lord was conceived... and came into existence as a spirit being.

    As for his second birth that, too, was by means of a woman, one of flesh, Mary:

    "For the child within her has been conceived by the Holy Spirit." Matthew 1:20

    I admonish all of you so-called "teachers" [of Law, whether it be the Old Law or the New]... take care that you don't find yourselves in the same "seat" as those you decry. You really should STOP trusting in yourselves... that YOU are wise... and allow yourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit. Only THEN will you be able to share TRUTH... because it will not be yours, but what you are given BY the Truth (John 14:6).

    I bid you peace... and ears to hear.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

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