Thank God for Morals ?

PSacramento

Not sure if this is the best title, but...

Reading D’souza’s book, “what’s so great about Christianity”, got me into a discussion with a friend of mine.

He mentioned that, people should be grateful that Christianity gave us a view contrary to “survival of the fittest” and “natural selecation”, he noted that Christianity teaches us the we are equal and that all deserve happiness, long life and, by default, survival.

Forget what was done that was horrible, that used Religion as an EXCUSE to control the masses, and realize how much good was done.

I didn’t really argue too much, but I said that I wasn’t sure that it wouldn’t have happened without religion anyways.

We got into a long winded debate/view about the history of man and, as with all things, we both made points for and against.

The fact that he mentioned after was what really hit me.

“So Paul”, he says, “ Why don’t you do whatever you want, why don’t you take what you want and need from your fellow man are you discretion”?

“Well…because it’s wrong”.

And that moral sense came from Christianity ( in my case).

Allow me to expand on this.

My friend mentioned that, after years in the army, being a very good shot ( to say the least) and after 30+ years of Martial Arts training and active competition in full contact, that I was “uniquely designed” to survive and deserve to survive ( according to natural selection and survival of the fittest) far more than the average person.

What about the Law?

Well, we all know that the Law is not a deterent to everyone and that far more people don’t breaks laws because its wrong then because of “fear” of punishment, at least that is MY view and what I gather from my experience.

If I wanted to take Steve’s car, or his food or his wife, for my own, what is stopping me?

My sense of moral right and wrong and that sense was instilled in me by religion, in my case ( as in most people’s in the west) it was Christianity.

Not believing in God would leave me subject solely to the Laws of Man and societies ability to enforce those Laws which, as history has shown us, is not always effective .

If I was to subscribe to “survival of the fittest” then, being an “Ubermensch” it would make sense to “make my mark” in the world and impose my will on others.

(Note: I am using myself as an example, but there are far better martial artist, fighters and soldiers and warriors out there than I and I am thankful that they feel the same way I do, most of then anyways).

Christianity has taught me that, just because I CAN do something, it doesn’t mean I SHOULD and that, even if something will benefit ME, I must take into account my fellow man and even sacrifice and give of myself for this “inferior” fellow man.

Would I feel the same if this view had never been instilled in me?

wobble

There are many Humanists who are very moral people. and are bringing up children with the same high moral standards. So where your moral "compass" comes from matters not.

With many people it seems that fear of punishment is all that restrains them, remove the police and they will steal for example, or in your case,once upon a time perhaps, give you the Rules of War to live under, as a soldier, and you will kill. For others, remove God, or the WTBS say, and they will act in an immoral manner.

The Humanist however, will not go against his moral code because he has set it for himself, and he would no longer be the person he was if he goes against it, a big decision indeed. The circumstances he finds himself in do not remove his moral compass.

So I believe that such a self imposed code is far stronger than any external one, be it from parents or religion or whatever.

Love

Wobble

PSacramento

Wobble,

Where do/did the "humanist" morals come from?

superpunk

Morality is relative to time and location.

At one point, people (Christian and otherwise) thought it was moral to own other human beings as slaves. Was that morality instilled in them by any divine source? Or are we picking and choosing which morals we attribute to our holy heritage?

Humans of all cultures place rules on themselves. We like things in their place. And it doesn't take a divine being to make us realize that if we don't want someone else to kill us, or take our things, then other people wouldn't appreciate it if we did it to them. At some point we wrote these things down, and installed penalties for violaters. Our sense of right and wrong is built up as we grow. If we take a toy from our friend - they will hit us. If we hit our friend, they will either hit us or tell an adult, who will penalize us somehow. We learn these things quickly - animals do the same.

In this chicken egg argument - human morality comes first - holy texts come second. At some point, the holy texts have been there so long that we feel we owe them something.

wobble

Dear PSacramento,

Surely you are not of the "Atheists have no morals" class ? Or the how do you know what is right and wrong if God did not tell you class ?

Which God do I choose to tell me, the basically bereft of morals Jehovah of the O.T ? Jesus of the N.T , who says very little ? (If indeed we know any of what he actually said)

Perhaps those of us brought up in a particular religious milieu owe a huge debt for our moral compass to that background, but as I said above, does it matter where your morals come from ?

What matters is if they work, if they not only stop you from doing harm to others,but make you do good to others,regardless of circumstance.

The majority of Christians, Muslims,Jews, Hindus and others do not have morals that apply when they are a serving soldier for instance, or at best do not have morals that prevent them from harming others,so the source of their morality is not that good, at providing a moral compass that works despite circumstance, is it ?

Love

Wobble

PSacramento

Surely you are not of the "Atheists have no morals" class ? Or the how do you know what is right and wrong if God did not tell you class ?

Absolutley not, I do think that atheists do owe their morals ro religion, whether they admit it or not.

superpunk

Where did religious morals come from - if not from humans?

In another way of looking at it -

Which came first, Grammar books - or grammar?

The idea that humans morality comes from religion, is circular reasoning and self-defeating. We invented religion. If morality comes from religion, it simply came from us.