Question about WTS/UN scandal

by gilwarrior 58 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    Many on this forum have been too quick to jump to conclusions, and the cause of this has been the tendency to accept as the gospel truth almost all allegations against the Watchtower. While I cannot say that I understand what's in the hearts and minds of all those who have been victimized by the organization, because I've experienced none of what they have, I think I understand in part their motivation. I support 100% the goals of all of those on this forum who wish to bring about major change in the Jehovah's Witnesses culture. However, I do not think it will be helpful in the long run for these well-meaning folks to make accusations which are not fully supportable.

    As an objective observer, I've found that some of the claims of certain forum members have been widely accepted as truth, when in fact they were false. Saint Susan, for example, several weeks ago told me and this forum that it was true that the Watchtower representatives had signed a paper saying that they accepted the aims and goals of the United Nations. That is not true; he believed it was true because others also believed it, so evidently he believed it, too. Hawkaw insisted once that Paul Gillies had stated that the Watchtower had applied for affiliation because that was the only way to obtain a library card, but he had evidently misread or misunderstood the letter; we now all know that all Gillies said was that the only reason they affiliated was to obtain a card; there's a huge difference in meaning, as we all know. The former meaning makes Gillies a liar, while the latter--the correct one--does not. Not too long ago, Dino stirred up a lot of excitement with his claim that the Interfaith Center had received a request on letterhead stationary from the Watchtower asking that Jehovah's Witnesses be listed as one of the Center's interfaith organizations. I showed that this was completely false, but not until after a lot of trusting people's hopes had been raised. As a final example of the type of misinformation that has been spread (unintentionally, I believe, by sincere and well-intentioned people) is this current issue dealing with the librarian. In this or another thread, someone put up a letter from the Senior Reference Librarian which contained much the same language as is found in another letter from the Head Librarian, but which leaves out essential and exculpatory information. The former letter would lead one to believe that NGO affiliation is not taken into account in granting grounds passes, when quite the opposite is true, as is made clear in the Head Librarian's letter. Thus, several people immediately jumped on the former letter as damning evidence against the Watchtower; they want to believe the Watchtower lies, so they will seize upon anything, it seems, to satisfy this need.

    Now, some on this forum have raised many issues related to the Watchtower-UN “scandal.” They all should be discussed, but only at the proper juncture. First things should come first. One of the first things to be discussed is whether the Watchtower’s explanation of why they affiliated is plausible. Other things should come later. If the Watchtower is shown not to have lied about this, then all of our attention can be turned to the next most important matter, which is, Did the Watchtower associate itself with the United Nations in a way that they would have never permitted the rank and file to do, or was the “relationship” much less than that?

    For now, I think we need to focus our attention on facts of 1991: Did the rules for access change, or did they not change? I’ve written a letter to the library asking for clarification. If they respond, I will tell the forum what they’ve said. There are those who say it should not be up to the Watchtower’s accusers to find proof that the libraries rules did not change; they say that the Watchtower should prove that it is not guilty. But, that attitude is indefensible, I believe. In the United States--though perhaps not in Great Britain--one is assumed innocent until evidence is brought by the prosecutor which proves one guilty. Forum members have made an extraordinary claim about the Watchtower--that Gillies was lying about the rule change in 1991--so these members should come up with the extraordinary evidence that proves the Gillies was lying. Is not that the fair way to do things?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    Joseph,

    It is true that all information about the WTS should be presented accurately. If only you would do the same.

    Let's itemize the facts that you have ignored:

    (i) The Portuguese branch said the WTS affiliated

    Excerpts:
    «"The registry as NGO was made only to be able to give humanitarian help and defend the human rights in several countries of the world"
    whereas Gillies stated that it was for the sole purpose of getting a library card.

    That is a documented contradiction. No explanation has been forthcoming. Doesn't that contradiction bother you? Or should we just discount the Portugal branch's opinion - even though branches in Europe are often involved with humanitarian efforts.

    That is CONTRADICTION NUMBER 1.

    (ii) Gillies said that Stephen Bates' article "substantially misrepresented" the issue. He presented no facts.

    That is CONTRADICTION NUMBER 2.

    (iii) Gillies stated that "Years later, unbeknowst to [the GB], the UN published "Criteria for Association" stipulating that affiliated NGOs be required to support the goals of the UN."

    Those criteria were published in 1968 in UN Resolutions 1296/1297. Therefore Gillies' letter is wrong.

    ADDED: I'd add that Stephen Bates in an email to Gillies, published on this site, clearly told Gillies about the 1968 resolution and pointed out other inaccuracies. Contact Stephen Bates if you don't believe me. Did Gillies attempt to correct his letter or let it stand? As you know, if one deliberately fails to correct an error (if it was that) once it becomes known, then that it becomes a lie.

    That is CONTRADICTION NUMBER 3.

    (iv) Hoeffel's letter confirmed that the same rules were in place in 1991/2 as in 1968 and even now.

    That is CONTRADICTION NUMBER 4.

    (v) The Head Librarian and also the letter higher up in this thread have confirmed that it was not necessary to be an NGO to get a library card.

    That is CONTRADICTION NUMBER 5.

    (vi) The Head Librarian says that she is confident that the rules did not change in 1991.

    That is CONTRADICTION NUMBER 5.

    Now, while it is true that a person is not guilty until so proven, it is also true when the weight of evidence is there a charge can be brought. The charge of lying and hypocrisy has legitimately been brought against the WTS based on the weight of evidence. It is now up to them to explain themselves if they want to have this charge removed.

    It is stupid to ask for proof that "something did not happen." The WTS, in its explanation to JWs worldwide is making statements that go against all of the evidence, including direct statements by UN officials on UN notepaper.

    You choose to ignore what doesn't suit you. It is not an extraordinary claim to make that the WTS is lying. There is abundant evidence that they lie regularly. The above facts were they available, say, in the Enron case would be sufficient to launch an investigation. What is extraordinary is that the WTS agreed to promote the goals of the scarlet-colored wild beast and did so for 10 years rather effectively. Thus, an extraordinary explanation is called for. We have the extraordinary evidence - even if you don't like it.

    Gillies' letter was intentionally deceitful which is why it caused so much confusion. Without doubt the vast majority of JWs read the letter the way that you say hawkaw read it - because it was designed to be read that way. It was designed to deceive. Also, it contains definite falsehoods as I have shown. Unless you are saying that Hoeffel and Dickstein are both lying.

    So far you have used straw men, selective quotations, and now you are dragging red herrings across the path. I don't give a damn about what Saint Satan or Hawkaw have said in other threads - in this thread we are dealing with specific concrete issues that I have raised repeatedly and which you are doing your best to avoid.

    As for writing to the library - I have done the same. I too am interested in getting more evidence. But the point is that if the WTS were being honest then they would be willing to explain the contradictions above. The UN is far to busy to find every single item relating to changes to library policy in 1991 1992. Enough documented contradictions exist to establish that, if the WTS refuses to discuss this issue - as it does - then the charge of lying must stand. For it is proven absent some extraordinary explanation from the WTS.

    I repeat, why don't you call Harry Peloyan, the editor of Awake! and get the answer from him? After all, since you are the WTS's number one defender on this issue he is sure to want to talk with you.

    LPH

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    This previous post is an example of what I was talking about: mistatement, or misrepresentation of the facts. For example, it is claimed in the above post that

    The head Librarian says that she is confident that the rules did not change in 1991.
    "Confident"? This is not what the Head Librarian said at all. She merely said she is not aware of any changes:

    I am not aware of any changes in 1991.
    Where does Hartley see words that lead him to assert that the Head Libarian is "confident" that there were no changes? Is it true that those words only exist in his hopeful imagination? He may wish that the librarian said "confident," but wishing doesn't make it so.

    Now we can add one more name to the growing list of forum members who have misrepresented the facts in order to make the Watchtower seems as guilty as possible.

    I won't respond to the other claims until it becomes necessary; for now, I want to determine once and for all whether there were changes in the rules for library access in 1991.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    So I suppose that she wrote what she did because she was not confident? In other words, she wasn't confident that there were no changes? I wasn't making a direct quote, and my words are a reasonable summary of what she said in her letter. So your charge is overblown.

    By the way, you stated;

    Saint Susan, for example, several weeks ago told me and this forum
    there is no Saint Susan on this board and so your name can be added to the growing list of those who make things up to suit their own ends.

    But at least it has provided you with yet another excuse to avoid the issues.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    My apologies to Saint Satan, whom I mistakenly called "Susan."

    Now, in regards to the propriety of falsely characterizing another person's statement:

    Unless that person has actually said, "I am confident that there were no changes," one should never lead others to believe that she said she was "confident."

    There is a huge difference between saying, "I am not aware of any changes," and, "I am confident there were no changes." The latter misrepresentation would lead trusting readers to believe that she was so certain of her beliefs that she wanted to emphasize her certainty by using the word "confident."

    I am sure everyone except perhaps Hartley would agree with that. Thus, Hartley seemingly deliberately distorted the Head Librarian's words to make his case stronger, and that is unconscionable. Am I the only one on this forum who believes this was wrong?

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    LOL! And you think that makes it ok - to refer to nonexistent people and then merely apologize? But what's good for the goose.....

    My apologies to the Head Librarian who I mistakenly said was "confident" there were no changes when she really said that "she was not aware of any changes."

    Of course, the fact that Gillies stated in his letter that the UN published requirements for NGOs years after the WTS affiliated - when they actually published them years before - in 1968 - doesn't make them liars, at least judging by Joseph's refusal to comment on that and other issues. But my slip-up after what must now add up to tens of posts in this thread is sufficient for him to hurl charges that I'm making things up - even though I gave a link to the letter in question. Interestingly he used one minor misstatement to damn the whole post.

    This is all typical behavior from those who defend cults - or have hidden agendas.

  • Lionel_P_Hartley
    Lionel_P_Hartley

    Tell you what Joe - show this thread to your colleagues, and anybody else you like - certainly advertise it to the forum and get their opinion too. Let's see which of us they think is dishonest.

    But I suspect that there's only me giving you any attention - and you know what - from now on there's not me either. So go at it Joe - you got the whole thread to yourself.

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    This thread has been accessed fifty-two times in the past two hours, so someone other than Hartley must be paying attention.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    I'm not surprised Hartley abandoned this thread; he's afraid if he continues I will show the forum some more of his misreprentations.

    Here's another one:

    The Head Librarian and also the letter higher up in this thread have confirmed that it was not necessary to be an NGO to get a library card
    Hartley evidently wants trusting forum members to believe that the Watchtower claimed that it was necessary to be an (affiliated) NGO to get a library card. This is not true.

    We been over and over this issue, but Lionel seems deliberately to be ignoring what everyone else seems already to have accepted as fact: The Watchtower never said that it affiliated because that was the only way to gain access to the library. It said quite clearly that it only affiliated because it wanted the access, not that it affiliated because that was the only way to gain access. The difference in meaning has immense implications, and Hartley seems deliberately to want forum members to attach to the Watchtower's words a meaning that was clearly never intended.

    All forum members, I think, would be well advised to ask themselves what they think they "know" about the Watchtower-UN affair, and why they think they know it. They may find that the facts to back up what they believe do not exist, and that could be because they have trusted others to think and interpret for them. Perhaps old habits die hard.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

  • JosephAlward
    JosephAlward

    In an earlier post I had absent-mindedly called Saint Satan "Saint Susan," then corrected myself with an apology. Lionel Hartley thinks this is a laughing-out-loud faux pas, evidently, and that my apology was unacceptable.

    LOL! And you think that makes it ok - to refer to nonexistent people and then merely apologize?
    Does he really think that I deliberately made up a fake name to mislead forum members into thinking that the list of those who misrepresented facts was longer than it really was?

    I bring this up to show forum members what happens when someone loses their balance in an argument. Hartley was caught in a deliberate misrepresentation made for the purpose of strengthening his argument, and he lashes out with feigned laughter at my innocent mistake and apology, then he runs away.

    What happened to Hartley will happen times ten when trusting forum members take their UN "case" to loved family members or friends trapped in the Watchtower. They will find their facts thrown back in their faces, declared not only "apostates," but foolishly misinformed ones at that, and this will surely make reconciliation all the more problematic. Be sure of your facts before you go to court, or you will be laughed out of it.

    Joseph F. Alward
    "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

    * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html

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