OBVES & JWs If Jesus were not God,then Expl...

by Adonai438 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    If Jesus is not God, then explain...

    -How was it possible for Jesus to know all things, (John 21:17)?
    -How can Jesus know all men (John 16:30)?
    -How can Jesus be everywhere (Matt. 28:20)?
    -How can Jesus, the Christ, dwell in you (Col. 1:27)?
    -How can Jesus be the exact representation of the Nature of God (Heb. 1:3)?
    -How can Jesus be eternal (Micah 5:1-2)?
    -How can Jesus be the one who gives eternal life (John 10:27-28)?
    -How can He be our only Lord and Master (Jude 4)?
    -How can Jesus be called the Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) if there is only one God in existence (Isaiah 44:6-8; 45:5)?
    -How was Jesus able to raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21)?
    -How can Jesus create all things (Col. 1:16-17), yet it is God who created all things by Himself (Isaiah 44:244)?
    -How can Jesus search the hearts and minds of the people (Rev. 2:23)?
    -Why was Jesus worshiped (Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6) when He says to worship God only (Matt. 4:10)? (same Greek word for worship is used in each place.)
    -In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? see John 8:58.
    -Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.
    -Then why did Jesus say you must honor him even as you honor the Father (John 5:23)?
    -Then why is it that both the Father and the Son give life (John 5:21)?
    -Then why did Jesus bear witness of Himself (John 8:18; 14:6)?

    (carm.org for more information)

    Next installment comming soon :)

  • toribabe
    toribabe

    i guess that means jesus is god

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    : Then why did Jesus claim the divine name, "I AM", for Himself in John 8:58? see Exodus 3:14.

    Arrrgghhhhh!

    Jesus (in Aramaic): xxx xxxxx xxx xxxxx xxx

    Jews: he just said xxx xxxxx xxx xxxxx xxx!! Well now, if we translate that into Hebrew, he said xx xxxx xx x xxxxx xxx! And if we then translate that into Greek he says XXxXx XxXxx xxXxx Xxx! Now where's my LXX? Ah, there it is! Why, I'll be DAMNED! Dude just said "I AM" (full capitalization). Why that dirty son of a.....

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    Point taken cygnus but to a jew it is very meaningful. I AM is the name of God given by God himself- that is the meaning of 'Yahweh'-Jehovah. The jews went so far as to add different vowels into this name in their writtings to keep from saying it by accident and thus saying the Lord's name in vain. The fact that Jesus used it of himself repeatedly knowing how the Jew's would take it shows he was intentionally calling himself God here. It may sound like nit-picking over a language but the meaning in the culture was extremly relevant.

  • sadiejive
    sadiejive

    I am undecided in what I believe regarding the trinity. But I have studied into it quiet a bit. When I read (what I quoted below) it reminded me of a scripture I found in 1 Corinth 10:1-4 (NWT version, I mean "translation").

    It reads:
    "1-Now I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea 2- and got baptized into Moses by means of the cloud and of the sea; 3- and all ate of the same spiritual food 4- and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they used to drink from the spiritual rock-mass that followed them, and that rock-mass meant the Christ."

    ....Does this mean that Christ was with them in the desert??

    In the OT God was seen (Exodus 6:2-3; 24:9-11; Num. 12:6-9; Acts 7:2), yet no man can see God (Exodus 33:20; John 1:18). It was not the Father that was seen in the OT (John 6:46). Who, then were they seeing? see John 8:58.

    Thanks for posting this. Very informative.
    sadie

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    Yes, Sadie it does:)
    And there are tons more verses like that- where it's Jesus or the Holy Spirit in the New Testament and Yahweh in the Old Testament. Stay tuned for further posts for OBVES, other interested JW's, and everyone else :) <><

  • OBVES
    OBVES

    At least you are giving the references that are engaging us in the discussion.
    No,the references you are giving don't prove Jesus is that God you are thinking about.
    You know such use of words when a person is ascribed something and yet that person didnt' take any direct part in what took place.
    It is a very known statement Hitler killed 7 mln Jews. Did Hitler kill a single Jew ? Probably not and yet people say he killed 7 million Jews !!!
    So saying that Christ created all things can have simliar figurative meaning that he didn't do a thing but God did for Christ's sake !!!

    So we have one question settled .
    I am pciking up some that may be very controversial.

    I know very well Isaiah 9.6 .
    It doesn't prove Jesus is God the Almighty but that through Jesus we can know or learn who is God the Almighty ,his Father !!!
    You didn't understand my some previous posts and that is a serious problem here now.
    I wrote if Jesus is a Saviuor it means that through him only God (the Father) saves us.
    If Moses was called God ;it doesn't mean he was God but that through him Israelites could know or learn who was God of Israel.
    If the apostles worked miracles it was not they did so but God worked miracles through them and it is obvious if we know who is God and what he can do and what man can do.
    It is absolutely sure Jesus was not eyt existing when God started creating the universe from point zero .There was nothing .
    If you want to bulid something you must have tools forst and materials to start creating something. Are you saying Jesus was floating in the emptiness with nothing around him ?! It doesn't seem logical at all.

    He said in Matthew 28.20 he will be always with his disciples and that doesn't say he is or will be everywhere. I can be always with my brother and sisters in mind,thinking about them frequently and that was what Jesus had on mind !!!

    Don't foregt that Jesus had said he couldn't do a thing unless by God's power (his Father's power).So how can you mix God with Jesus. God has power to reveal Jesus what Jesus wants to know.
    So say.1000 people prayed to God today and Jesus can ask God to let him know what each of those 1000 were praying for and God can reveal that to him for,say, one more weeks in heaven.
    He can know all the details of what I am writing on this forum if he asks God in heaven to reveal it to him.In this sense since God allows him to know things Jesus can know "everything" !!! Yet ,he is not the same as God Yahweh and cannot know all things at the same time and be present everywhere and vice versa.

    With respect to "I AM" again let's not forget all Hebrew letters were small .If so , we have "i am" then. When we read Revelation 3.12 there will be some servants of God who will have God's name writen on their forheads.
    If you saw "Beatles" written on the musical instrument you could easily recognize that the group of people were called Beatles. So if you saw God's name which is "i am" on the foreheads fo some people you could think they are " gods " .Yahweh is also god (in the Hebrew language all letters are small !!!).So how many gods or Gods we would have then ?? And here lies the problem so many people can't get out and twist the Scripture. Yes all those servants are gods and yet we read those words in the light of the Bible and we can easily get to know that Yahweh the Father is another kind of god,Jesus another kind of god and 144000 servants yet another kind of gods !!!
    And I gave already explanation before which you rejected or don't understand,
    So Yahweh is " I AM " using the Englsih language makes it easy to discern the differences. Jesus is " I am" .144000 are "i am".
    Like the word lord;
    Yahweh is the LORD. Jesus is the Lord, 144000 are lords !!!
    Yahweh is GOD, Jesus is God,144000 are gods !!!
    I have done so to help you understand how it shoudl be renedered in the Bible in the English language if I were a translator.

  • OBVES
    OBVES

    Should we worship Jesus ? Of course , we should do but that is not not to be a worship we owe to God Yahweh.

    But the Bible says it is God that must be worshipped only !!
    The Bible says not to call anyone God but God can do it and he called Moses God and the people recognize that and Jesus is called God too. Some great servants will be called gods - servants of the true God. We read everything in the light of the Bible and we know that God Yahweh is God in the full meaning ,so the same regards the word "worship".The worship of God Yahweh is different than worship of Jesus.For example, we are not to pray to Jesus.So the worship given to him is not the same like worship given to God Yahweh.
    The Bible says clearly that God forgives sins and yet Jesus was forgiving sins and what else Jesus alone told us to forgive each other's sins !!! So we have graduation in forgiving sins.
    "Forgive our sins as we forgive others ".If God can only forgive so what are Gods if Jesus told us to forgive sins-Matthew 6.12-15.
    So again we come out of this apparent mess by interpreting the Bible with the Bible and using common sense and logic.
    I am going to write a post about using simple common sense and logic in understanding the Bible.
    So are you still insisting Jesus is God Yahweh?

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    Angie,

    Some days I think Jesus could be God, and some days I think he's not.
    I've seen both sides of the arguements and can honestly say, "lets flip a coin".

    I don't feel that it is a matter that must be resolved with certainty, salvation does not depend on coming up with the right answer, so I no longer spend very much time trying to figure it out.

    my .02

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    Sorry for the ramble to anyone except OBVES,
    I am not gifted with brevity :)

    As regards to obves about creation:
    So Jesus didn't REALLY make everything- it's just figurtive?
    So when do you take the Bible seriously?
    When is it actually saying what it said? I guess it's symbolic when it doesn't fit with you doctrine but literal when you think it does.

    *incidentally: I did understand your previous posts- they are just incorrect. Don't assume because I don't agree with you that I am unable to comprehend what you are saying. Maybe you didn't understand my replies because aparently you still think there is still more than 1 God despite what the Bible says.

    As to many god's argument: It's just plain wrong and blasphemy against God to claim anything is equal to him. You aren't even argueing JW doctrine here because such doctrine is grounds for disfellowshipping. Now you may try to say that is what the trinity does but it does not. I'll again recount what the doctrine of the trinity is because I know JW's doen't neccessarily know it:
    There is only one TRUE God, Yahweh, who eternally exists in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. These three are separate persons and are not eachother- ie. The father is not the Son and so on. Three persons are one being, God.

    It is absolutely sure Jesus was not eyt existing when God started creating the universe from point zero .There was nothing .
    If you want to bulid something you must have tools forst and materials to start creating something. Are you saying Jesus was floating in the emptiness with nothing around him ?! It doesn't seem logical at all.

    It is an assuption on your part that Yahweh is only the Father. God,Yahweh, was eternally existant before creation. Yes, all three existed eternally. There was nothing besides God. Whats this about tools? If God needed 'tools' how did he make Jesus in your thinking?
    Are you saying the Father was 'just floating in the emptiness with nothing around him' ? That's the same statement as if Jesus was just floating. Maybe you think Christians think that Jesus had a body for all eternity. If that's what you mean you are mistaken. Jesus has eternally existed and took on flesh at the incarnation. From there on Jesus has a physical body but he was Spirit before just like the Father and Holy Spirit are now.

    You still didn't answer the verses that state Jesus is prayed to- you seem to think that Jesus has to ask the Father to know what people pray about. Where are you deriving that from? I know there is no scripture that says that Jesus has to ask the Father so are you getting that from your assumption that Jesus is not God so he 'can't' know all things? The fact is if he is prayed to in the Bible he must know what we are saying or else why have and do we now pray to him?
    Why is Jesus the only mediator between God and Man if he can't even know what we pray? Some mediator! So let me get this staight, We have to pray to the Father to have him tell Jesus what we are praying for so Jesus can mediate for us to the Father? That is not what mediator means.

    As to your I Am issue:
    I AM capitol or i am lower case is still Yahweh in hebrew- Hebrew is written in either all small OR all capitol- exclusively one or the other. I am writting in ENGLISH though and in English we use capitols for beginning of sentences, names etc.. With or without capitols the Bible still stands true to what alot of us here are trying to share with you. Nothing else in the Bible is called Yahweh except the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It's true believers will bear the name of God but it's clear they are bearing the name of God- not claiming or being called Yahweh. I've gone over this many gods stance of yours too many times.

    So Yahweh is " I AM " using the Englsih language makes it easy to discern the differences. Jesus is " I am" .144000 are "i am".
    Like the word lord;
    Yahweh is the LORD. Jesus is the Lord, 144000 are lords !!!
    Yahweh is GOD, Jesus is God,144000 are gods !!!
    I have done so to help you understand how it shoudl be renedered in the Bible in the English language if I were a translator

    You are just making up these ways of titling ranks here. You yourself said there are no capitols. There is ONE and ONLY ONE GOD-
    I AM is Yahweh who is the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit----a later post will prove this.
    The 144,000 are not gods, lords, or i ams. They are NEVER called that in the Bible.
    [b]1st Corinthians 8:5:
    "For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), yet for us there is but ONE..."[b/]

    Hope you take this into account, if you have questions go ahead- the truth is not hurt by lies, and stay tuned for more posts for you to ponder :)
    In Yahweh's Service, Angie

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