Who do you think this is talking about? (page 2)

doublelife

Marking. tec, I'm interested in what you found also.

Quentin

Most Christians don't search, or they might understand why Christianity today is under scrutiny for paganism...

I agree...whatever you find at the end, is for you you to weigh.

tec

Awildflower and Doublelife - Wow, no pressure or anything, eh?

Okay, sorry I was gone so long. I got caught up in the search, and lost track of time. But really all I did was look up the myths that Freke and Grandy... as well as other Christ-myth'ers... claim to have quoted from. If you don't want to read through some of my findings, then by all means, please look these things up yourself.

These are a couple mythology sites that give info on Osiris/Dionysus/Mithra/Attis/Adonis/Horace and other such godmen that Jesus has been compared to:

www.pantheon.org/areas/ and www.greekmythology.com/

(I don't know how to put the actual links in here. If someone tells me how, then I'll fix it)

Also the following people have tackled this issue with far more diligence and clarity, in case you'd like to check them out. I used these people and a few others for my information. I did not believe them on their 'word' alone - why would they be more reliable sources than those quoted by Freke and Grandy or any other Christ-myth'ers - but rather on the info that I could find on the above godmen myself.

(It is noteworthy that these people list non-biased sites to reference their material. Non-biased sites meaning that these sites relay the myths without trying to prove or disprove a comparison with Jesus. Just the facts, ma'am. )

http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html

http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html

Okay.

So first I would like to point out that every Christ-myth'er that I have found uses the December 25th birthdate to make these comparisons. That sets off a warning bell in my head at once. Either you didn't do your research, or you lied to mislead people into seeing a connection that you might not otherwise have been able to make, or you simply referenced other Christ-myth'ers, who did the same.

Circular referencing, I call it. Same as circular reasoning. In fact, many of the godmen myths do not mention a date of birth at all. Those that do... so what? Jesus was not born on that day.

So lets deal with some of the claims on the website that Awildflower quoted above. I won't deal with them all. You can check out the above sites.

- Jesus is born of a virgin, who after her death ascends to heaven and is honored as a divine being. So is Osiris/Dionysus.

First, Jesus is the only 'godman' said to be born of a virgin. Dionyses was born in a sexual way by Zeus and a mortal mother, then she was killed and Zeus incubated the aborted Dionysus in his thigh. (there are a couple of accounts, but none that imply a virgin birth) Isis searched for her husband Osiris' body after it was scattered across the earth, and then found his phallus and impregnated herself with it, creating Horace. (couple of different accounts here also, but no virgin birth) And there seems to be no similarity betwen Osiris and Jesus at all... at best we can try to compare Jesus to Horace, the son of Osiris.

Also, maybe the -her- is a typo. If not, Mary is never honored as a divine being in heaven, except very near to later, by Catholics.

- Jesus was born in a cave on December 25th or January 6th. So was O/D

We already know about Jesus not being born on Dec. 25th. Be careful about this January 6th deal. It is important to Dionysus, but nowhere is it mentioned in Christianity. This is blatantly misleading. Horace was born in a swamp. Another godman was incubated in Zeus' thigh after his mother aborted. Mithra was born directly out of a rock...

- Jesus born in Bethlehem... and there is mention of this with O/D

Not anywhere that I can find. See above.

- Holy man who baptizes Jesus has the same name as a pagan god of water...

I assume Freke and Grandy are speaking of Anup the Baptizer... who is mentioned by other Christ-myth'ers. But there is no such person mentioned in the story. (Hard to find evidence to dispute these claims when I can't even find mention of them in the actual greek/roman myths.)

- Jesus portrayed as a quiet man with long hair and a beard, same as O/D

Seriously?! Um... so what? In truth, NT doesn't say if Jesus had a beard, we assume it because so did most of the men in that time.

- Jesus accused of licentious behavior, and so was O/D

Misleading. Jesus was scoffed at for associating with 'sinners' and yes, he did drink wine. Dionysis and his followers on the other hand were drunks. Big drunks. Dionysis was called the god of the vine for a reason. Jesus was not. Any reference to a tending and pruning of the vine on Jesus behalf was symbolic.

- Jesus is hung on a tree, so is O/D

Nope. Dionysus was referred to as 'The young man of the tree'. It is suggested by Christ-myth'ers that this means he was hung on a tree or crucified. Horace doesn't die at all... except in one unofficial story where he is cast in pieces into a river, then later fished out by a crocodile.

- Jesus is wrapped in cloth after his death and bathed in oil and myrh, so is O/D

Again, Horace didn't die. Osiris is torn limb from limb. At best, in an unofficial story, Dionysis is killed by the titans when they eat his heart. Zeus rebuilds him from his heart. This is also where a comparison is made about eating the flesh and blood to communion. Of course, eating Dionysis did not give the titans life. Zeus killed them. And it was a bad thing. No one ate Jesus to death.

I'm going to stop here. I hope you get my point. For myself, I stopped even before here.

I'm not going to comment on the sages of the mystics or pagans or whatever that are in the Jesus Mysteries, because as I said, I never read the book and so never researched these guys on top of all the rest. But to me, the fact that so much is false, completely discredits everything written.

The only other thing I can mention is where their sources came from. There's a site called skeptiwiki.org that mentions a lot of incorrect endnotes, and misleading references... but you're going to go cross-eyed looking at it:) Like I said, I don't have the book, but I would strongly recommend that anyone who does check all the physical sources used.

One other thing I found to be wary about was using references that post-dated Christianity. Meaning it is that myth that would have borrowed from Christianity, and was then used to say that Christianity is a myth because of these similarities.

In conclusion, I find the methods used misleading, incorrect and ill-researched. I wouldn't trust anyone who used them, and nothing that I found threatens my belief in Jesus as a real person and the son of God. I am far more confident for having researched them instead of taking these people at face value. But please don't take my word for it. Check unbiased sources and decide for yourself.

I'm probably forgetting something, but it is now 2am, and I'm going to soooo pay for this in a few more hours! I apologize if this is not the type of research or findings that you were expecting me to post.

Tec

designs

Awildflower

I found author Joseph Campbell's take on Religion Spirituality and Culture refreshingly conciliatory, you take how people believe within the context of their totality, what was or is known at the time.

You could walk into the forests of the Philippines and fine the Mindanao still using stone tools and you could sit in a class at MIT and study String Theory. Some founder of a group thought Jehovah lives in the constellation Pleiades.........

Its an elegant universe.

cameo-d

Jesus was just one of us.

designs

'What if god were one of us'.............Joan Osbourne

awildflower

Well Tec I certainly appreciate the time it took for all that research, it's going to take me a while to go through it, so I'll get back here later. Thanks though!

awildflower

And let me just say this while I research, my problem is not if Jesus really existed or not, my problem is the development of "Christianity". To me if people believe in who Jesus was and really got the since of his words and life, they would NOT be part of an organized religion! What was of interest to me most in the article was the Gnostic's take on who Jesus was (or wasn't) and the "spirituality" they had verses what the organized Church came up with. Hope that makes since. I like Jesus! But I don't like so called "Christianity"!

doublelife

tec, no. I wasn't trying to pressure you. I'm genuinely interested in what you found and thanks for the info you provided. I've heard lots of stories comparing Jesus with pagan gods and it's very discouraging. I've been having doubts with Christianity because of that. There is so much stuff on my to do list to research that I haven't touched on this one yet. I will eventually get to it. You bring out a good point about December 25 though. When I watched the zeitgeist movie I thought it was very strange that that was used as a basis for comparison.

tec

Awildflower

To me if people believe in who Jesus was and really got the since of his words and life, they would NOT be part of an organized religion!

We're on the same page here! I'm just at a point in my life where I'm not worried about how other people are expressing their faith. If the doctrines and rites that they follow give them strength and are harmless, then by all means, go for it. If those rites and doctrines say to them, 'Go out and fight a war in God's name, killing or torturing everyone who doesn't convert to our way of thinking', (which we already know has been done in the name of Christianity) then that IS a problem. That IS 'so-called Christianity.'

As well as being a mockery of the love and compassion that Jesus taught.

Tec

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