A Paradox for JWs and other religious people

by NutFlush 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  NutFlush

  I was raised a JW and left nearly 15 years ago before/when I went away to college. Since then, I have had nothing to do with organized religion (or non-organized religion, for that matter). In my experiences, fervent religious belief has not correlated well with things such as critical reasoning ability or secular success as measured by profession, level of education, income, etc.

  I was browsing the blog of a semi-well-known guy who has worked in some of the same fields as me and came upon the following passage:

  "If you swore to someone that you just moments ago had witnessed several impossible things, culminating in oh say someone being slain and then rising from the dead, almost anyone would deem you to be crazy - the exceptions mostly to be found in institutions.
  
  And yet if your beliefs are identical, held with the same certainty as if you had just witnessed them (in fact higher certainty than if you had witnessed them, as presumably even if you are religious you have been conditioned by reality to doubt the impossible in your actual day-to-day life) but instead of being a witness, you read about them in a book or someone told you about them - then, your beliefs are unremarkable.
  
  I'm sure it sounds like I'm ragging on religious people here (and things being as they are it's hard not to sound like that at all times, even if I'm just reading a shopping list) but I say this to ask a specific question about the epistemology of the rapturous: what is the calculus by which the second version is LESS crazy than the first? Shouldn't believing something impossible happened because you were there and saw it be LESS crazy than believing it happened and NOT having personally witnessed it?"

  I have often wondered the same thing. For folks who consider themselves religious, what's your take on this? Given that you obviously grew to doubt some of the "crazy" WT doctrine yourselves, what has led you to join another faith or live your life with strong spiritual beliefs?
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  bluecanary

  I like this question. Welcome to the board, NF.
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  undercover

  If my wife were to come up to me with a piece of fruit and said, "This snake and I were talking and he told me this fruit was good. And you know what? He was right! It was good! You should try it too." I'd have to her checked out by a mental health specialist.

  Yet, many people believe that same scenerio actually did happen to the first married couple. And not only that, many of them believe that this incident was the beginning of all bad things that are happening to us today.
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  bohm

  hey and welcome! i hope you stick around.

  Im not really the target audience, but its a good question. When i have asked similar questions, they have usually been countered by personal experience: "When i pray/read the bible, i feel it is the inspired word of God, therefore i have faith that it is true".
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  Mad Sweeney

  I'm not your target, either. My beliefs, such as they are, are vague and not firmly held. I'd say my mind is completely open to ideas but I'm still programmed to be afraid of deemunz getting in.
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  dissed

  I'm still searching.......
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  ziddina

  Excellent questions, but here's the basis for the belief/faith...

  "I heard about this guy/gal getting resurrected! After he/she died! Hey, I'M going to die someday - maybe soon!! If I believe this stuff, maybe I won't die, after all..."

  I made an earlier post about my high-school Commercial Art teacher - he taught us that there are three basic categories for products:

  (1) Necessary items - the stuff you absolutely NEED to live. Groceries, a roof over your head, gas/electric/heating/air conditioning... Well, maybe not that LAST thing, tho people living in the South may disagree with me...

  (2) Perceived needs [often connected with sex appeal...] - mouthwash, anti-dandruff shampoo, the coolest car on the block [Mustang, Corvette, Hummer, whatever...], the latest soft drink/snack food/garment in fashion - which supposedly convinces onlookers that you are 'cool' and therefore a good potential 'mate' - maybe that should be 'brief mating partner'...

  (3) FEAR products - based on allieviating our fears... Flood insurance [gee! I live on top of a 350-foot hill! Maybe I'll get flooded...], fire insurance, earthquake insurance, health insurance, life insurance, security - which incorporates products like home-security systems, exterior lighting, fences, guns...

  Religion falls into that LAST category. We all fear DEATH, and religion promises us that we'll be 'special' or 'saved' or 'enlightened' or 'whatever' - just as long as it softens that last, most final blow of all - the end of our existence.

  That's what I think... Zid
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  Snotrag

  I think the probability of God exists because the position of time in the formation of the universe. The earth was formed a certain distance from the sun that allows a certain extreme of temperatures to exist, the iron core of the earth allows for magnetic poles that hold the amosphere in place against the force of the suns solar wind, there is a shield around the solar system that prevents really nasty radiation from entering the zone, the interaction of oxygen and caron dioxide in plants fuel the ability of animal life to breath, the idea of water being the combination of two gasses is quite something, all of the complexity of the variety of life on this planet, this stuff did not just happen. The universe is on some 15 billion years old as far as can be ascertained by mankind, and the earth is only 4.5 billion years old. In a random exchange of probabilities that is not enough time to have all of these things come to pass. The universe was made on purpose. The earth was made on purpose. Probably man was made on purpose. Is this what the end result is supposed to be?, I don't know. It could be that land squirrels are the end result of what is wanted here or even cockroaches. The point is that this place is not an accident. The religion factor of your question is open to me because all that there is beyond what you can see is conjecture about a book that may or may not contain the answers. Unless and until that can be established all we have is beer. BTW welcome to exwitness theology 101.
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  NutFlush

  A couple of thoughts:

  I wonder if part of the idea behind joining or staying in a religion is simply keeping up appearances. Aside from the JW "faders" who do this sort of thing every day in order not to lose family or friends, there are probably other communities where feigning belief is a prerequisite to various secular benefits. For example, I doubt we'll see a day in the US where an openly athiest person becomes president, simply because doing so would make him/her a relative outcast among certain groups of people. Still, this only answers the question of why someone would profess to believe something that seems irrational, not why they would actually believe it.

  Regarding the idea that our world is so complex that it must have been created -- if I decide to play the lottery today, I'd have a very remote chance of winning (perhaps 10,000,000 to 1). But if 10,000,000 of us play the lottery, one of us should win. Similarly, if each of us played the lottery 10,000,000 times, we'd figure to hit it big one time. Now this doesn't mean much to each one of us, since we'd probably die long before we'd have a chance to get anywhere near that number. But if we had an infinite amount of time, we'd win that lottery many many times over. Given that billions of years may have transpired before the first creature appeared on earth, why is it so unreasonable to believe that it could have happened by chance?
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  Snotrag

  Given that billions of years may have transpired before the first creature appeared on earth, why is it so unreasonable to believe that it could have happened by chance?

  If you play the lottery with 10,000,000 to one odds the chance of getting the numbers you picked are the same each time you play, that is 10 million to one. You could play 10 million times and not hit the lottery because the odds are each time the same, they do not change because you played one time. The point I'm trying to make is the same, for whatever it took to have certain amino acicds come together and somehow gain life in a random manner on a planet with water and amosphere and temperature and nutrients and sunlight and whatever binds these things together has odds so long that 15 billiion years cannot contain them. In fact I think the odds are so long that all these things coming together at on time in one space would take longer than eternity.