by Englishman 37 Replies latest jw friends
Cygnus,
You said:
You simply cannot lump all JWs into two or three specific (and primarily negative!) categories.OK, maybe not all, but certainly the vast majority of JW's do not have any degree of social awareness at all. They believe that the whole World is an evil place and that the people in it are evil too. Think about it:
This wicked system of things.
This wicked OLD world.
Mens hearts are full of badness.
Englishman.
Bring on the dancing girls!
Scully,
: you leave out very important information.
: in order to be a JW in good standing, one must accept the teachings unique to JWs. Such as, but not limited to:
a) Armageddon is just around the corner and will wipe out everyone and anything that is at cross-purposes with the WTS/JWs;
I would say that most contemporary JWs do not believe this.
b) the use of Blood for life-saving medical purposes is wrong and evil;
Wrong. It depends on what sort of use of blood.
c) Children do not deserve to be heard when an elder molests them;
Whether you like it or not, that is not JW policy.
d) Disfellowshipping is a loving thing;
JWs express regret over someone's DFing, not rejoice. If the higher-ups did away with the shunning, JWs worldwide would be thrilled.
e) Expelling and shunning are loving things;
Same.
f) the Faithful and Discreet Slave is infallible, and to point out otherwise results in (d)and (e), also Faith = Works;
JWs disagree with certain tenets of the FDS all the time. They just do not go around advocating their disagreements.
g) the Governing body is dispensing spiritual food at the proper time;
That is one unique tenet of JWism. But most JWs do not even know who the Governing Body members are. Ask a JW who is on the GB and they might give you two names. Maybe.
h) Heaven is only open to 144,000 Humans;
True, but most Christian religions also restrict heaven to elect believers.
i) Independent thinking is wrong;
As it is in many corporations or government institutions.
j) Jehovah will take care of problems within the organization in "his due time";
Not unique to JWs at all.
k) Koala bears are good examples for parents to follow in disciplining their children;
Oh?
l) disfellowshipping is a Loving provision;
Repeat.
m) Marriage is the only proper forum for people to express sexuality;
As if JWs are unique in this.
n) the New World Translation is an excellent, accurate rendition of the Holy Scriptures;
I believe it is.
o) Oral sex is bad;
Not bad. Just nobody's business. Do you regularly speak of lapping about your spouse's sex organs in public?
p) Phallic symbols are everywhere;
Not a major topic in conversion with JWs.
q) QUIET PLEASE (signs at assemblies);
Only because many JWs don't know how to show respect. Why do you think the signs were put out in the first place?
r) Relaxation means you should be studying a Watchtower publication instead;
Ridiculous assertion.
s) Salvation is contingent upon association with the WTS/JWs;
Salvation is contigent upon believing in Jesus. JWs are not unique.
t) Time slips must be submitted to be considered approved;
Finally you get one right. Again, most JWs would be thrilled if this was done away with.
u) Unity is redefined to mean 'conformity';
I could show you dozens of Watchtowers which teach otherwise.
v) Variety in thought and belief is a sign of weakness;
So what? If a JW submits to that peer pressure, it is his problem.
w) Women, while making up the majority of followers, have no say in decision-making processes;
Which is how it should be. ;-)
Again, not unique to JWs by any means.
x) eXiting the JWs makes you a bad person;
Not necessarily. Again, not at all unique to JWs.
y) Young People Ask (enough said);
You did get that one right, although again, JW advice to young people isn't nearly as bad as some groups.
z) Zebras are notorious for their high sexual appetite.....
Face it, Scully. You bash JWs because for some other reason besides an objective analysis of their faith. Why not really let us know what it is?
Eman,
Don't confuse what is written in decades old Watchtower with what contemporary JWs believe or feel.
englishman,
i havent had time to read all these responses so i dont know if mine has already been mentioned. i dont think you are correct in lumping all witnesses together as you are. there are good jw's and for the most part i think of them as victims just like us. yes they are cold hearted and believe whole heartedly that we and the whole world are evil and will be destroyed but you seem to be forgetting that they believe this because they are told they have to. they believe jehovah demands that they think this. they are brainwashed and dont know how to think for themselves. they cant because they are afraid of displeasing jehovah.
dont get me wrong there are some ignorant, arrogant, and evil jw's out there. but there are some good people who are just being mind controlled. its not that they are closed minded because thats their personality but they are closed minded because they have to be or else they are displeasing jehovah and risking d'f ing.
flower
((((((((flower))))))
I disagree. The JW of today (except for the very old ones) is not the same as the JW of ten years ago, or even of a year ago. You will belief that the world is all bad because that's what you WANT t o believe. There is too much disagreement between what the Watchtower spews in their hate-mags and what JW's see with their own eyes.
There is no longer any excuse.(except for the very old) Somewhere between 3/4 million and 1.5 million ex-jw's make the very loud statement that there is less and less of an excuse.
just my 1/2 cents worth....and my opinion. The longer I attend these damn meetings, the more I see JW's being that way becasue it's what they want. It just isn't the same as it was years ago.
In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"
Jws are gullible. The want better things. But wanting dosen't mean it will happen. In fact the majority will be disappointed at some point in their lives. I feel sorry for a good number.
ISP
Scully,
Damn nice post's woman! I will be watching out for you comments now. I like the way you think.
Dave
Cygnus:
a) Armageddon is just around the corner and will wipe out everyone and anything that is at cross-purposes with the WTS/JWs;
I would say that most contemporary JWs do not believe this.
then you are in contradiction of WT teachings
b) the use of Blood for life-saving medical purposes is wrong and evil;
Wrong. It depends on what sort of use of blood.
I did qualify it, silly. I said LIFE-SAVING. And you know that if a JW ends up in a car wreck and suffers life-threatening massive blood loss, that he or she has been instructed to refuse a transfusion of blood, and usually has on his or her person an Advance Medical Directive card, which hospital staff are obliged to follow in the event that a patient is unconscious and unable to tell the hospital what his or her wishes are.
c) Children do not deserve to be heard when an elder molests them;
Whether you like it or not, that is not JW policy.
Whether you like it or not, whether it is a JW policy or not, it happens more often that you have any idea about.
http://www.silentlambs.org
d) Disfellowshipping is a loving thing;
JWs express regret over someone's DFing, not rejoice. If the higher-ups did away with the shunning, JWs worldwide would be thrilled.
You are missing the point. The WTS very plainly states that the shunning part of disfellowshipment is what makes it "loving". It is hailed as a way of shocking a person back to conformity.
e) Expelling and shunning are loving things;
Same.
f) the Faithful and Discreet Slave is infallible, and to point out otherwise results in (d)and (e), also Faith = Works;
JWs disagree with certain tenets of the FDS all the time. They just do not go around advocating their disagreements.
They don't go around advocating their disagreements because it would be considered "apostasy".
g) the Governing body is dispensing spiritual food at the proper time;
That is one unique tenet of JWism. But most JWs do not even know who the Governing Body members are. Ask a JW who is on the GB and they might give you two names. Maybe.
The insular nature of the GB, and the average JW's knowledge of who it is exactly making the policies that dictate the behaviour of 6 million people, is why JWs generally regard them with almost a mystical reverent awe. When one of these men gives a talk at an assembly, the lineups at the washrooms disappear, because everyone is fixated on the possibility that "New Light" might be uttered in their very presence and they don't want to miss it.
h) Heaven is only open to 144,000 Humans;
True, but most Christian religions also restrict heaven to elect believers.
Sorry. Not true. MOST Christian religions believe that salvation (and therefore a heavenly afterlife) is achieved merely by believing in Jesus and asking to be "saved". Not by works, not by being chosen.
i) Independent thinking is wrong;
As it is in many corporations or government institutions.
So you're admitting that JWs is just another corporation. What we are talking about is not "many corporations or government institutions" where someone works and has to follow certain policies and procedures. Those people still go home to their families and do not have to "live" according to their jobs' policies and procedures. The WTS dictates the minutiae of daily living to its aherents. It tells them what kind of job they should have. It tells them what kind of hotdogs to buy. It tells them how long the hemlines should be, and how short the hair should be. It tells them not to grow a beard. "Many corporations or government institutions" are concerned mainly about getting the job done, and that you show up for work and do the work they pay you to do.
j) Jehovah will take care of problems within the organization in "his due time";
Not unique to JWs at all.
Maybe not unique, but used as an excuse to gloss over problems in the heirarchy. Probably other religions don't refer to the matter as being 'in Jehovah's hands' per se, either.
k) Koala bears are good examples for parents to follow in disciplining their children;
Oh?
*** Watchtower 1956 Feb 1 p95 "Teddy Bear" Discipline ***
Modern parents, in this age of delinquent youngsters, can take a lesson from the mother "teddy bear," the koala. When baby koalas "are really naughty," writes Ivan T. Sanderson in his new book Living Mammals of the World, "the mother turns them over her knee and spanks them on their bottoms for minutes on end with the flat of her hand, during which time their screams are soul-rending."
l) disfellowshipping is a Loving provision;
Repeat.
for emphasis
m) Marriage is the only proper forum for people to express sexuality;
As if JWs are unique in this.
not unique in believing it perhaps, but unique in punishing people who don't conform
n) the New World Translation is an excellent, accurate rendition of the Holy Scriptures;
I believe it is.
Too bad that people who actually have STUDIED ancient Hebrew and Greek would disagree with you for its obvious slant to JW teachings instead of what the original 'flavour' of the text is.
o) Oral sex is bad;
Not bad. Just nobody's business. Do you regularly speak of lapping about your spouse's sex organs in public?
YES, bad. And I agree that it's in bad taste to discuss it in polite company, yet the WTS thinks that it's an entirely appropriate subject matter to discuss at 'spiritual mealtime' with small children present.
p) Phallic symbols are everywhere;
Not a major topic in conversion with JWs.
Then you weren't around for the studies in "The Nations Shall Know that I am Jehovah - How?" or "God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years Has Approached". And you likely missed the part in your studies that compares the use of the Cross to phallus worship; which begs the question, if the Cross is a phallic symbol, is not a 'torture stake' even moreso a phallic symbol??
q) QUIET PLEASE (signs at assemblies);
Only because many JWs don't know how to show respect. Why do you think the signs were put out in the first place?
Why don't they show respect? Are they not taught to appreciate their spiritual food?
r) Relaxation means you should be studying a Watchtower publication instead;
Ridiculous assertion.
Depends on the JWs you know. I knew JWs of that type.
s) Salvation is contingent upon association with the WTS/JWs;
Salvation is contigent upon believing in Jesus. JWs are not unique.
Sorry to disappoint you. But if you tell an elder that you aren't sure you believe in the ransom, he'll likely try to help you understand the concept. If you tell him you don't believe that the WTS or the GB is the "Faithful and Discreet Slave", you'll be in front of a judicial committee on charges of apostasy before you can blink twice. That tells me exactly who they believe is their saviour, and it ain't Jesus.
t) Time slips must be submitted to be considered approved;
Finally you get one right. Again, most JWs would be thrilled if this was done away with.
It won't be done away with. It's a very easy and time-honoured way of separating the 'strong' JWs from the 'weak' JWs. That's the way they like it, too.
u) Unity is redefined to mean 'conformity';
I could show you dozens of Watchtowers which teach otherwise.
Go ahead, make my day.
v) Variety in thought and belief is a sign of weakness;
So what? If a JW submits to that peer pressure, it is his problem.
Who are the peers? JWs. And why the pressure?? For the sake of "unity." Not submitting to that kind of 'peer pressure' can get you in a lot of trouble. See Independent Thinking, above.
w) Women, while making up the majority of followers, have no say in decision-making processes;
Which is how it should be. ;-)
Again, not unique to JWs by any means.
Sorry, I don't buy that women are any less capable of teaching or representing a congregation in prayer than a man is. In fact, I think some women would be far better at it. Having a Y chromosome doesn't make some people better than others, it gives them a penis. That's hardly justification for giving someone a leadership role.
x) eXiting the JWs makes you a bad person;
Not necessarily. Again, not at all unique to JWs.
It does to their mind make you a scapegoat. Have you ever noticed how they think of exJWs as being loose, immoral, criminal people?? It's a way to instill fear into followers. It's also a way of lumping them all together in one pot.
y) Young People Ask (enough said);
You did get that one right, although again, JW advice to young people isn't nearly as bad as some groups.
Well a group that does not foster the intellectual and civil growth of a person so that they can spend more time going door-to-door selling religious propaganda has their priorities confused.
z) Zebras are notorious for their high sexual appetite.....
Sorry but this is a reference from the "Aid" book and also from the "Insight" volumes. You should check it out sometime.
Face it, Scully. You bash JWs because for some other reason besides an objective analysis of their faith. Why not really let us know what it is?
If I thought it was any of your business, I might tell you. And actually, I have posted precisely why I left. I guess the topic wasn't juicy enough for you.
Love, Scully
It is not persecution for an informed person to expose a certain religion as being false. - WT 11/15/63
Cygnus & Scully,
Wow, is this overkill or what? Some really heavy posting here!
Seriously, the witnesses are imprinted with a number of beliefs that are not of any use to modern society. They are not charitable. They see no need to re-dress the balance of, say, the destruction of the rain forests or the disappearance of the ozone layers. All they are interested in is whether or not these problems will serve to forward their beiefs that the world is collapsing around us. They love it!
They won't of course, do anything to alleviate the problems that we all face, they are far too busy finding fault with everyone and everything.
They are just persons who say: "Tut tut! Roll on Armageddon! Please destroy these wicked people who disagree with us!", of course none of them ever do anything that is practically useful, they are far too busy criticising and condemning.
Englishman.
Bring on the dancing girls!
Well Scully...one thing for sure...I would hire you as my defense attorney any day! Good work and interesting material.
Glad you are on our side kiddo!
Skipper
