we were never s'pose to die????

by Julie 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    According to the bible man was suppose to live forever, no sickness, easy childbirth for women, just your basic paradise, right?

    Actually, the Bible never says that, nor does it tell us what God's plan would have been for Adam and Eve if they had not sinned. The Watchtower reasons that eternal paradise on earth would have been the result, because that fits with their theology. But to get to that conclusion, they need to assert the dubious premise that God didn't know what would happen after He created man. I don't want to get into issues of predestination and free will here, but the Bible does tell us that God knows the end from the beginning, therefore, I would have to conclude that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would sin, and what the consequences would be. So, it may well be that there was no plan for what would happen if man didn't sin, simply because God knew all along that he would.

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    aC,

    I think this to be fair on God's part:

    We didn't ask to come into exsistance, but came to be, by the will of God.
    Once in exsistance do we want to stay in exsistance for all eternity? Eternity that God makes posible under God's eternal plan, and Godship.

    Do we trust him enough to want to live forever under his arrangement?(Faith).
    Let people decide after they experience life with both good and bad so they can make a more inteligent choice.
    Then let them decide but simply requireing faith in him and his provisions if they want to continue.
    Eternity is scary, and a scary choice that each one should decide for himself.

    Hope I made sense?

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • teenyuck
    teenyuck

    I do recall hearing the "Jehovah will stop procreation" theory. The question of God cutting off the population when the earth reached saturation brings up another question:

    What would happen to sex? Since JW dogma is that sex is for procreation, this would make sex obsolete. Perhaps that is where masturbation comes in! Since we would not be able to do it with each other, we could do it alone.

    "I used to be Snow White, then I drifted." Mae West

  • Erich
    Erich

    Neon Madman:

    The bible says that Adam and Eve got advises and commands directly through God or his Angels (every day at "the breezy part", see Gen 3:8. I'm sure you already remember). For that reason it is seemingly clear that human being were always informed about steps to take live an optimal life on earth...

    But contemplate the following situation:
    Scientists in 10 or 20 years probably will be in the position to provide eternal life for mankind (there are indeed some reasonable indications..!)
    What will happen then ?
    How can you stop birth's and overpopulation?

    You see: The matter does not flee if one closes his eyes. It will be there in near future. With or without bible; with or without WTS; with or without JW's....

  • teenyuck
    teenyuck

    Erich-

    The issue of overpopulation is occuring in undeveloped, third-world countries. The birth rate in industrialized countries is going down. No pun intended! Japans birthrate is less than 1 per couple. They are begging people to have children. In the long run, under population is just as harmful as over population.

    Apparently they stopped having sex. They must have lots of JW's telling them it is only for procreation, out there!

    "I used to be Snow White, then I drifted." Mae West

  • David Gladden
    David Gladden

    Not that I believe the bible is true, but I have to say that story in Genesis does make it clear that Adam and Eve were *prevented* from becoming immortal.

    Gen 3, 22 (New American Standard Bible)
    Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"

  • celebrate
    celebrate

    Actually, I have always had questions about this. In my JW training, the Garden of Eden was a paradise. No pain, no problems, no death. But surely there were venemous snakes or spiders, or even stinging bees in the garden. Did they never bite or sting? Were there no cliffs in the garden that Adam and Eve might fall off of, or bodies of water where they might drown? There had to be germs, so they certainly could get sick! Of course, everytime I asked, I was also told Jehovah would have taken care of that. However, the human spirit is meant to develop, to learn and grow. To be in a paradise where everything was just "perfect" all of the time would more of a hell than a paradise. It is not that I want bad things to happen, but day in and day out of perfect days of doing nothing would not be paradise.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Hi all,

    The JW theology on this subject is something they share with a number of minor relgions; it's called ``conditionalism.'' Basically, the argument goes as follows: ``When God told Adam, `if you eat from the tree, you will surely die,''' the corollary is ``don't eat/don't die.''

    In other words, death for Adam was not inevitable, but conditional; if you ``surely die'' if you eat; then don't eat/don't die. Straighforward, no?

    Besides, if one teaches, as do the mainline churches, that man is inherently immortal, that he's built so that his immortal soul departs the body at death, with only the soul's destination open to question (heaven if you've been good, hell if you've been bad), then would not that moot the point of Jesus' ransom?

    I mean, if people died and went to heaven or hell before he did the drill, and they continued to do so thereafter, what did his death/change/prove/accomplish??

    Oh, theology, theology; it makes one's head hurt!

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Hi, Julie... peace to you!

    There is something with regard to this matter that many miss:

    Adam was taken from OUTSIDE the Garden, and placed INSIDE the Garden. That garden, however, was NOT physical... but spiritual. It is the Garden of the City of New Jerusalem, which is not a physical place, but a spiritual one... the kingdom of God.

    Now, you are correct, on the PHYSICAL earth, such would be impossible: populations... of man AND beast... would increase to the point of overload. The physical earth, however, was that which was OUTSIDE the Garden. When Adam was placed IN the Garden, however, he was NOT placed there in the physical flesh, for the physical flesh... flesh "with its blood"... cannot 'enter' into the kingdom. So, he could not just simply walk into the Garden, intially. God... had to place him there.

    In order to do that, Adam had to be given the kind of flesh that COULD enter... the type of flesh that my Lord had... that which could 'transfigure'... from the physical to the spiritual. Could 'go in and out'. Like spirit beings... angels, etc. That being the case, a body that could 'transfigure' into spirit, there is NO set number of that which can reside in the kingdom, because unlike PHYSICAL matter... which takes up SPACE... that which is spiritual is not subject to space... or time.

    You see, in the physical world, no two pieces of matter, no matter HOW small (thus, including atoms and their parts), can occupy the same space. If one atom is here, another cannot be. In the spirit realm, however, such 'laws' are nonexistent. That is the reason WHY that realm... "Jerusalem Above"... is FREE! It is not BOUND by the 'laws' of the physical realm.

    Once Adam 'sinned', however, he was given a 'long garment of skin' (NOT an animal skin, mind you, for such an animal would have had to die, yes?) that 'enslaved' him... BOUND him. This 'garment' was the physical body that WE possess now... that which we 'inherited' from Adam. It is the 'befouled' and unclean 'garment', called such because it holds WITHIN it... sin and death, in the form of sickness and aging. The spirit body does not age nor does it carry illness. It is not 'corruptible'. We tend to think of 'corruption' as crime, etc. But in truth, 'corruption' is simply decay. From the time we are born, our phyiscal bodies begin to decay... until it returns to the dust.

    The spirit body, however, is 'incorruptible', in that it is immortal. Now, some tend to think of immortality has not needing food, and not dying. The first is an error: even spirit creatures must eat. However, the second is true... almost. While the spirit body does NOT die (thus, it is 'immortal')... it CAN be destroyed. In fact, it MUST be, to be terminated. The only thing that CAN destroy it, though... is fire. Water can contain the spirit, but only fire... can destroy it.

    To reside IN the Garden, Adam had to 'put on incorruption'... or a spirit body. This was given him by God (a 'white (thus, uncorrupted) robe')... and such body was SUSTAINED... by means of eating from the Tree of Life. When he was cast out, however, the very purpose of the cherubs posted was to keep him from getting BACK to such Tree... and eating... which he could do to 'undo' the 'decay' that was now occurring; REVERSE the death process and live forever. Because as long as he ate from that Tree... he would live. The decay process... would be reversed... and he would be 'restored'... to life.

    The reason for this confusion is that many miss the point that the account in Genesis talks about TWO 'earths'... that which is OUTSIDE the Garden... and that which is INSIDE. That which is physical... and that which is spiritual. Outside the kingdom... and inside. Outside the kingdom, you are correct: the earth cannot sustain such populations effectively. Inside, however, there is no such problem.

    People tend to think of the kingdom of God as being some light years away ("somewhere in a galaxy far, far away...") that one can reach simply by traveling some distance physically. However, as my Lord said... "the kingdom... is in your midst." God, then, is NOT 'far off' from anyone of us, and is, in fact, within groping distance. All we need do is reach for Him. We can't reach, however, with the physical flesh... for such flesh "is of no use at all."

    Such 'groping', then, must be done... WITH THE SPIRIT. For God IS a Spirit... and those worshipping Him must WORSHIP Him, approach Him, seek Him, speak to Him, hear Him... and SEE Him... with spirit.

    I truly hope this helps.

    I am your servant, and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    The bible says that Adam and Eve got advises and commands directly through God or his Angels (every day at "the breezy part", see Gen 3:8. I'm sure you already remember).

    Wrong. You're adding words to the Bible. It says that God was in the garden during the 'breezy part' of the day and that Adam and Eve hid from Him. It doesn't say that this was a daily occurrence or that that was when they got instructions from Him.

    For that reason it is seemingly clear that human being were always informed about steps to take live an optimal life on earth...
    Assuming, of course that His purpose was for them to live optimally on earth forever, as the Watchtower teaches. That "purpose" is never stated in the Bible, and, since I believe the Bible when it tells me that God knows all things, I have to conclude that God knew in advance that Adam and Eve would sin, and that there was no need for Him to have a contingency plan in case they did not.

    But contemplate the following situation:
    Scientists in 10 or 20 years probably will be in the position to provide eternal life for mankind (there are indeed some reasonable indications..!)
    That's a pretty optimistic view of the matter, even if we leave theology out of it. The most glowing scenarios I've seen for the future as provided by science do not presume to predict the secret of eternal life within 10 or 20 years.

    What will happen then ?
    How can you stop birth's and overpopulation?

    You see: The matter does not flee if one closes his eyes. It will be there in near future. With or without bible; with or without WTS; with or without JW's....

    I am not saying that overpopulation is not a problem, though I'm inclined to think that it's more a problem of resources being mismanaged than of the earth's resources being inadequate to provide for the population. Just the same, this is getting a bit off the original topic. Julie wasn't asking about overpopulation as a social problem, she was asking how Jehovah's Witnesses (or those who believe as they do) would explain how the earth could support all those people if everyone lived forever. Obviously, it couldn't; at some point the well would run dry. But I was pointing out that what the Watchtower teaches on the subject is not what the Bible says. The Bible never says that man was created to live on earth forever, so the question is moot.

    Tom
    "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan

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