HOW do you know what you KNOW you know? (page 3)

AllTimeJeff

You are going to find that there are people who care about knowing and learning, as opposed to caring about what they believe.

Beliefs have little to do with what is provable. If I told you that due to my own anecdotal musings, I think that (wo)mankind is hardwired to search for meaning and purpose in life, and that this seems to trump all else, that is a belief of mine that knowledge and learning can't validate 100%. If I tried to say that this quest for meaning is essentially what the word "spirituality" is turning into, those who disagree with me would debate me not on the substance, but on the semantics of the word "spirituality".

At a certain point, esp after leaving the WTBTS, one must engage in a years long quest, to question everything, to read, to be open minded. At the end of that journey, one only need find himself.

What happens often (it seems to me anyway) is that instead of being open to other ideas as a quest, the quest turns into a search for self-validation. (i.e. "I know God exists, I must find out where, how, and who is worshiping him correctly, or at least to my tastes....." or "I am certain God doesn't exist, and I will immerse myself in what I already know...")

Either way is flawed. It is much more honest, and much more difficult, to say at the start "You know what? For whatever reason, I bought into the GB doctrines. There is a lot to learn. I need to be really humble and observe and learn and READ."

I think it curious that one very major question is not asked by many when they first leave, but to me, I wonder about it for everyone who ever leaves: What was it about me that caused me to believe the GB dogma and that got me to stop thinking? Why did I believe it? What was it about me that was, in my own fashion, attracted to the JW's in the first place?"

To me, that is where all of us need to start imo. If we can figure out ourselves, and why we somehow bought in, even if we were just born in's, then it gives a much more solid platform to launch into a search into what we know, if only because we start with ourselves first.

At the end of it all, we will not add to what we are, but discover what we are, and from there, comes the knowledge of what we know, that makes each of us unique.

I am very much an existential person, and what gives purpose and meaning to an individual while at the same time, respecting the differences in others is a higher road to tread. We all need to "know" and believe in something. But there aren't shortcuts to it. It takes time, serious introspection, and dedication to mine out who we are and why we are here.

Peace!

Mad Sweeney

Haven't read the thread yet, just the subject line. Wanted to give my first response unbiased by anyone else's reasonings.

Q: How do I know what I know?

A: I don't.

There is nothing I believe to be true that was not obtained via my senses and filtered through the lens of my previous experiences. We say things like, "the sky is blue." But is it? Blue isn't an inherent characteristic of sky. Blue is the label for our perception of the particular frequency of light that reflects off of the sky molecules. From another perspective one could say the sky is every color EXCEPT FOR blue, since the blue frequency of light is what bounces off of it and enters our pupils.

Or is it? Do I KNOW any of the above?

No.

The best we can do is weigh the clear and logical evidence we are presented with and believe things with a percentage of certainty and act accordingly. The worst thing we can do is believe anything with 100% certainty.

Terry

When I realized the WT lied in many issues I questioned everything the WT said. When I realized the NWT was corrupt I questioned all the bibles. When I found out the Bible was a fraud I questioned all the Holly Books. When I realize one religion had deceived me I questioned all religions. When I realized there was no evidence to believe in my God. I questioned all Gods.

So now I dont believe on any of the above not because of the amount of reasons to believe rather the abscence of evidence.

When you think...then you feel.

How you think tells you how to feel.

Your emotions are a result of your thoughts.

Emotions are never a source of information but a reflection of the information you have.

Believers feel belief feelings that reflect back on that belief.

The problem with how we FEEL when we don't believe is we don't FEEL anything and the absence of feeling is devasting.

Replacing the misinformed God belief with belief in life, possibility, family or friends or our own potential toward a meaningful goodness

can give us a source of feeling that is real.

Remember, if you want to feel what is real you must believe something real.

That's my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

fokyc

Which one is Fred?

FRED or fred is the 4 keys just under the $ or 4 key on my keyboard,

he's been there for years now!

Heaven

Over 30 years ago I realized the teachings of the JWs were not aligned with the Bible but that they used the Bible to justify their teachings. I was also not interested in being subjugated. There were other religions having problems too, and these were in the news at the time. Around the time I turned 16 is when I took a huge step backwards from anything 'religious'. I could see they all had problems and a narrowness of mind and heart that I wasn't interested in.

How do I know what I know I know?

In life, what I do is observe, listen, read, engage others, try things out, and try to be self-aware.

What I know is a result of the above. It is 'what is', 'what works', and 'what doesn't work'. These may not necessarily work for all but it works for me. I think if we compared notes we'd probably align in many ways. I continue to learn and be open to this.

There are some Permaculture Principles that can be applied here. Nature is one of the best teachers in this:

Principle #1: Observe and Interact

Principle #4: Apply Self Regulation and Accept Feedback

Principle #8: Integrate Rather Than Segregate

Principle #10: Use and Value Diversity

Principle #12: Creatively Use and Respond to Change

notverylikely

It's not that hard.....

Some people like to be told what to think, some like to look for themselves.

Some people try to use science/math/research/the bible to prove they are right, some like to use those things to find out what is right.

Some people need to feel god, some people don't want to. Some people can't.

Some people are slaves to their emotions, others are in control of their emotions.

etc. etc....

There is no one right answer for everyone.

THE GLADIATOR

Another interesting and informative post from Terry. I thought this excerpt from my notes was relevant:

Despite being warned about ‘the empty philosophy of this world,’ I continued to visit the library and read many books on philosophy and psychology to gain an insight into the workings of the mind. I learned that sometimes when we feel emotionally confused by conflict in our lives, we will think we are prepared to change anything in order to find peace and harmony.

Instead we close our minds to the possibility of changing or letting go of the one thing that is the cause of our conflict. Opening our minds involves being prepared to think the unthinkable. To be prepared to lose the thing in our lives that has meant the most to us and realize that our greatest possession is no longer of value to us.

The hole that is left in our world cannot usually be filled immediately. We have to be prepared to stand alone, naked and empty, accepting our condition until such time as we build a life that suits us. If we weaken then we will return to what we have left behind. I had been alone and naked for some time already but failed to recognise my condition.

Terry

Despite being warned about ‘the empty philosophy of this world,’ I continued to visit the library and read many books on philosophy and psychology to gain an insight into the workings of the mind. I learned that sometimes when we feel emotionally confused by conflict in our lives, we will think we are prepared to change anything in order to find peace and harmony.

Instead we close our minds to the possibility of changing or letting go of the one thing that is the cause of our conflict. Opening our minds involves being prepared to think the unthinkable. To be prepared to lose the thing in our lives that has meant the most to us and realize that our greatest possession is no longer of value to us.

The hole that is left in our world cannot usually be filled immediately. We have to be prepared to stand alone, naked and empty, accepting our condition until such time as we build a life that suits us. If we weaken then we will return to what we have left behind. I had been alone and naked for some time already but failed to recognise my condition.

Gosh, that's well written. Ever thought of becoming a writer? Well, done.

THE GLADIATOR

Thanks Terry, I do write. It is taken from a draught for my latest book.

Some of my inspiration has come from you and your clear explanation of how values are at the root of our emotions.

I always read you posts but am not able to match your penetrating insight and prolific output.

thetrueone

Today, here and now----what are you doing DIFFERENTLY to be able to know what you know?

What I've done personally since leaving the JWS is keep a open mind about things,

accepting ignorance since being brought up a JWs is like swimming in a pool of ignorance that difficult to climb out of.

I've always been analytical when exploring and investigating things, looking careful at the source

of the information and then deriving at a conclusion. We all know there is much bullshit in the world,

many times money being the underlining instigation, so it pays look at things with a certain level of skepticism.

As we age we all gather up new information that we retain and evaluate and perhaps add

to are own personal book of wisdom.

I can honestly say I've added a few pages to my book since joining this forum,

possibly you folks did so as well.

HOW do you know what you KNOW you know?

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