Eveloution presupposes design

by Snotrag 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • darkl1ght3r
    darkl1ght3r
    However, most deals will still simply be random patterns of cards, and non-random patterns like 4 Aces, or a sequence like Jack, Queen, King, and Ace are vastly fewer in number compared to all the possible random combinations. And if a dealer dealt enough of them in a row, or even one that is lengthy enough by itself, then we would interpret this a sign of intelligent design, (similar to how SETI looks for such non-random patterns in radio-signals, to discern design).

    Can you tell me what it is that would make 4 aces a non-random pattern? Or J Q K A, for that matter? Why are those any different than any other "random" set of 4 cards? Keep in mind what "random" means as it relates to statistics.

    And no, "we" would not necesserily interpret that as a sign of intelligent design. It would be interpreted ONLY as a highly improbable event,the cause of which would still be in question unless we had good reason to attribute it to intelligence. The SETI example doesn't lend much help to the case, BTW. As SETI does not look for non-random, meaningful signals. They look for one thing: artificiality, which does not need to be a non-random pattern, complex, or meaningful. In fact, as far as they're concerned, the simpler the better. It's an accepted fact among scientists that "information", order, and complexity are not sufficient to point to non-natural causes. You should really look into what the good folks at SETI themselves think of the intelligent design proponents who hijack their science for psuedo-scientific goals.

    bohm has sufficiently destroyed your second point. No need for me to re-hash. However I'll reiterate, you can't cite probabilities as support for your case when we have no way of determining what those probabilities are. Anyone who throws out "woowoo" big numbers in regards to the odds of life developing on it's own is just talking out of their ass.

    ReMine shows that given even assuming the alleged evolutionary age of the earth, and generous assumptions on the number of trials available for such attempts, that such a non-random sequence will simply not occurr within even the lengthy hypothetical time frame.

    No. That's complete bullsh!t. He can't show that at all. Remember, just because the odds of something occuring are, say, 1 in a million, that does not at all mean that it will take that many tries to see the event happen. There's nothing preventing that that occurence being the first in the series, or the tenth, or the 1,854th. You also disregard the innumerable number of trial runs that can all be running at the same time.

    Oh, and just what is the "evolutionary age of the earth"? Evolution is dependant on an old earth, but not vise-versa. The age of the earth has nothing to do with evolution. The only place I could find that term in use is on fundamentalist anti-science websites.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    bohm has sufficiently destroyed your second point. No need for me to re-hash.

    My second point was that: "It needs to be kept in mind that as the improbability increases the time required also increases- and it will rapidly increase to exceed even vast hypothetical time periods available." bohm did't even challenge this,- let alone "destroy" it.

    However, perhaps I should reword it slightly to read: "It needs to be kept in mind that as the improbability increases the [average] time required also increases- and it will rapidly increase to exceed even vast hypothetical time periods available."

    However I'll reiterate, you can't cite probabilities as support for your case when we have no way of determining what those probabilities are. Anyone who throws out "woowoo" big numbers in regards to the odds of life developing on it's own is just talking out of their ass.

    If we have "no way of determining what those probabilites are" at all then why have even secular journals published such calculations???

    For example:"The information theorist Hubert Yockey calculated that given a pool of pure, activated biological amino acids, the total amount of information which could be produced, even allowing 10 9 years as evolutionists posit, would be only a single small polypeptide 49 amino acid residues long. 5 H.P. Yockey, ‘A Calculation of the Probability of Spontaneous Biogenesis by Information Theory’, J. Theor. Biol., 67:377-398, 1977. Return to Text.http://creation.com/how-simple-can-life-be

    Regarding my statement that: "ReMine shows that given even assuming the alleged evolutionary age of the earth, and generous assumptions on the number of trials available for such attempts, that such a non-random [coin flip] sequences will simply not occurr within even the lengthy hypothetical time frame." you said:

    No. That's complete bullsh!t. He can't show that at all. Remember, just because the odds of something occuring are, say, 1 in a million, that does not at all mean that it will take that many tries to see the event happen. There's nothing preventing that that occurence being the first in the series, or the tenth, or the 1,854th.

    While it "could" hypotheticaly occur on the "first" (or whatever early) attempt, as I pointed out earlier as the improbability increases the [average] time required also increases. ReMines arguement, as I recall, is that on average it would take so long (magnitudes longer than even the secular age estimates ) that such a coin flip of 100 heads in a row it is almost certain to not occurr.

    You also disregard the innumerable number of trial runs that can all be running at the same time.

    Actually, I think that he figured in simultanous trials.

  • bohm
    bohm

    hooberus: I have read the paper in question.

    Let me begin at the writeup by the author: Hubert Yockey calculated that given a pool of pure, activated biological amino acids, the total amount of information which could be produced Thats an interesting choice of word in this context, and indicate the author never really bothered to read or understand Yockeys article.

    The article itself - well, he calculate the propabilitis based on random assembly. Its Hoyles Fallacy once again. Let me comment something that stood out:

    Around eq. 1 he define complexity as kolmogorow complexity:

    "Kolmogorof has called entropy or information content of the shortest algorithm describing a sequence the complexity [his italic] of the sequence"

    ie. size of smallest algorithm which can generate a given sequence. Fair enough. From the conclusion:

    "A scenario for the origin of life must present a plausible means of generating complexity, not order or negentropy".

    There is something very strange here. A random sequence will have (he pretty much write it!) high complexity according to his definition. Im quite sure he dont want to say that nature cant generate randomness, but thats what it says!

    What he properly mean is that something is complex if the kolmogorov complexity is high but less than what would be expected from randomness. But that is just silly as well - any signal drawn randomly from a discrete (skewed) distribution on a finite space will be complex (consider a trivial huffman code)!

    The article is 22 pages long and i dont have time to go through it with a comb (but i have read it). All you bring forth from it is the citation in question - can you define what is meant in the citation with "information" then and elaborate of what arguments in the article you feel are novel and not just a restatement of hoyles fallacy?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Here is the way I look at it. I don't have enough of an education and mathematical understanding to intelligently HOLD AN OPINION in the first place in order to discuss evolution.

    Which means, if I DID START forming an opinion it would be based on some authority figure. I'd be parroting their words.

    My brain wouldn't even be involved and the opinion would be worthless. I'd just be a sock puppet for the authority I'm quoting.

    I did enough of that as a Jehovah's Witness.

    I've tried reading a number of books bother pro and con on Evolution. I find that the I.D. (intelligent Design) books often dishonestly frame their arguments.

    Hint: Any time you are reading a book or article that substitutes the word DARWINISM for EVOLUTION here is what they are doing.

    They are taking the science of the mid 1800's and trying to refute THAT instead of the science of the year 2010.

    Is this not an indication of their honesty?

  • bohm
    bohm

    Hey, i read those 22 damn pages twice! dont run away :-). I can send them to anyone who is interested.

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