Why the hell (pun intended) do either of them need worship?
If there is a God, is he an atheist?
by DT 20 Replies latest jw friends
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Lieu
God is God and according to the Bible has one mediator (his son) that he thought well of & appointed to such a position ... the men who want to be mediator are in the way & false. They didn't die for anyone's sins & they go against the arrangements. They're useless and not appointed to be in such a position.
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Chalam
Hello DT,
Of course, any God would believe in himself, but would he believe in someone greater than himself?
Indeed :)
Isaiah 45:5 (New International Version)
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.Deuteronomy 32:39 (New International Version)
39 "See now that I myself am He!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.Isaiah 44:8 (New Century Version)
8 Don't be afraid! Don't worry!
I have always told you what will happen.
You are my witnesses.
There is no other God but me.I know of no other Rock; I am the only One."
For those that believe that Jesus is God, it is no surprise that the NT reveals that Jesus is the Rock 1 Corinthians 10:4 , Romans 9:33, 1 Peter 2:8
I dunno how the WT can reconcile that with verse 8 from above but no doubt they have their "explanations"
Blessings,
Stephen
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designs
Stephen Stephen you always fake like you don't know the answer to varying denominational views or theological doctrines like high and low christology............... you are faking ignorance aren't you
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BurnTheShips
Another possible objection is that this God may be eternal and have no need of an external cause. However, how would he know he is eternal? I have no recollection of a definite beginning to my existence, but that doesn't mean that I'm eternal.
Category error. "Beginning" is meaningless when it comes to "eternal." Eternity is timeless. You might as well be talking about square circles.
God, by most definitions, is the greatest and best. There is none greater, or better, by definition. Such an entity, could not have a greater, or better, because then it would not be God. So, if you want to follow this middle man deity argument, I could tell you that the one I worship is Maximus Optimus, and that your hypothetical deity isn't the one I am talking about when I talk about God.
In short, your argument is fatally flawed.
BTS
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Chalam
Lieu God is God and according to the Bible has one mediator (his son) that he thought well of & appointed to such a position ... the men who want to be mediator are in the way & false. They didn't die for anyone's sins & they go against the arrangements. They're useless and not appointed to be in such a position.
Amen and amen!
1 Timothy 2:5 (New International Version)
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Blessings,
Stephen
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DT
Category error. "Beginning" is meaningless when it comes to "eternal." Eternity is timeless. You might as well be talking about square circles.
I don't see the error. I never implied that eternity would have a beginning. I did mean to imply that it would be difficult for a deity who perceives that he is eternal to confirm that this is actually the case.
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BurnTheShips
I did mean to imply that it would be difficult for a deity who perceives that he is eternal to confirm that this is actually the case.
Are you speaking of an omniscient, all knowing deity, or just some big guy in the sky? Because there is a difference between the two scenarios. Omniscience mean the former knows. As I said, your reasoning, if applied to an omniscient, omnipotent deity, is flawed. Now, we can go back and forth about the existence of such a thing, but your argument is built on the presupposition of a God. As I said, for the most part, in most minds, God is defined as the greatest. Such a maximal entity doesn't need external confirmation. It contains all confirmation within itself, due to its omniscience. There are no external references, it itself is the ultimate reference. You might as well argue whether the number Zero wonders whether it is the beginning of numbers stretching out in both directions of the number line. If it isn't, then it isn't Zero.
BTS
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DT
God, by most definitions, is the greatest and best. There is none greater, or better, by definition. Such an entity, could not have a greater, or better, because then it would not be God. So, if you want to follow this middle man deity argument, I could tell you that the one I worship is Maximus Optimus, and that your hypothetical deity isn't the one I am talking about when I talk about God.
In short, your argument is fatally flawed.
Yes, some would share your definition of God, but consider the implications. If any higher godlike creature could never be certain that there wasn't a higher godlike creature in some other place or realm, then it would be impossible for any possible godlike creature to regard himself as truly God. It would turn the concept of God into something almost meaningless.
In any case, your definition of God is not my definition. I feel the possibility of a deity in another realm who has had some influence on our realm should be considered, even if evidence is lacking. I see no purpose in making the definition of God too narrow to allow for meaningful discussion, even if that might be the theological preference of some.
Also, I think one of my arguments may have been missed. I believe that a deity in another realm would have good reasons for concluding that he actually is the greatest and best, that there is no other greater deity in another realm, even if he couldn't prove this conclusively. This could cause him to be sympathetic to atheists on Earth who conclude that he isn't likely, because of similar logic. I think it should also be considered that the highest realm of existence may actually be the realm that we inhabit.
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DT
Burn the Ships,
I appreciate this discussion.
"Are you speaking of an omniscient, all knowing deity, or just some big guy in the sky? Because there is a difference between the two scenarios. Omniscience mean the former knows. As I said, your reasoning, if applied to an omniscient, omnipotent deity, is flawed."
To put it crudely, I'm just speaking of some big guy in the sky. This is because I don't believe the other scenario is even possible, according to normal logic. The concept of omniscience poses some tricky logical problems. I'm willing to allow for the possibility of a different realm that has different rules of logic, but I don't regard this as likely and don't have any reference point for discussing this possibility in a meaningful way.