Why God CANNOT FORGIVE YOU.....but someone else can!

by Terry 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  Few, if any, Christians understand FORGIVENESS in Judaism and how it is very different from Christianity.

  Ever see the bumper sticker that reads:

  "Christians aren't perfect--just FORGIVEN"?

  You don't see that on Jewish person's car.

  Why not?

  In Judaism, only the person you sin against can forgive you!

  If you steal from Moshe only Moshe (the injured party) can forgive you. Or, choose not.

  A Christian (we'll call him Bob) might pray and ask God to forgive Fred for a sin committed against Charlie and confidently expect his prayers to be heard.

  But, in Judaism this doesn't fly!

  In Judaism you can't go past the injured party. The buck stops there! The power to forgive rests in the injured party alone.

  No, according to Judaism, the wronged party holds the key to your forgiveness and your obligation is to him.

  The law of the Talon was a law of Justice because of the balance between the injury and the restoring of the injured party to equity.

  Fairness was key. Restoration was key. Permission by the victim was key. There was no "going over the head" and appealing to a higher

  authority than the injured victim.

  Jewish law was a system of fines, service and payback that would compensate a victim fairly. It wasn't business.. It was PERSONAL.

  (A next of kin could even exact Justice against a murderer unless that murderer willingly fled to confinement in a refuge city.)

  In Christianity no such theology exists! Forgiveness is remote control, impersonal and automatic.

  You can steal, fornicate, lie, cheat and commit mayhem and then turn to God and be forgiven by displaying a penitent heart.

  Displaying a penitent heart to whom? To God!

  Even so late as on your deathbed in many cases. Yet, the people whom you took from, injured, belittled, wronged and destroyed have no say in

  this transaction! They suffer the wrongs and God makes it even-steven on the scale of justice! According to many Christian theologians.

  In Judaism murder is the unforgiveable sin.

  Why?

  Because the injured party NO LONGER EXISTS in order to forgive you!

  This is the mis-step in Christian theology as it exists today and has long been taught. The victim is a mere nothing and the welfare of the

  wrongdoer is more important to God!

  Christian Justice is not well thought out by any stretch of the imagination.

  For example, kindness which is NOT DESERVED (grace) is given by God.

  The penitent only has to recite the magic words: "In Jesus' name".

  The undeserving recipient gets the boon of grace without earning it, meriting it in any way or making restitution to the victims of his sins.

  On what basis can this be called Justice?

  Why, none at all!

  It is a kind of loophole lawyer trick. Do your wrongs, then, utter the magic words and all is forgiven!

  Isn't it apparent that the justice of Judaism is more ethical than that of Christianity because of the balance of fairness as regards victims?

  Not one person in 100 can tell you what the sin against the Holy Spirit is or even WHY it exists.

  But, the unforgiveable sin in Judaism makes perfect sense.

  I'm asking you to consider that Christianity is supposedly an improvement on Judaism and a more perfect realization of God's dealings with

  mankind, and yet--makes no sense whatsoever in terms of equity, balance, fairness or goodness.

  Comments?
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  OnTheWayOut

  Christianity allows you to go to the church (who speaks with/for God) to seek forgiveness so that you will give them money.
  If you seek forgiveness from people you have wronged, the church gets no money from that.
• 

  dgp

  On the Way Out, that is so true! A church might play the role of a forgiveness wholesaler. As in We DELIVER! We get you forgiveness! Our God Does Take you To Heaven!
• 

  Terry

  As a sidebar:

  The Apostle Paul tends to avoid altogether the notion of FORGIVENESS OF SINS on a Theological basis (verb: aphierni LXX Romans 4:7) but relies

  instead on a completely different concept: JUSTIFICATION (a legalistic metaphor).

  This is a fascinating sort of magic where the one sinning (sinner) disappears and becomes a righteous other person (Christ)!

  Only in Ephesians and Colossians does a notion of "forgivenss of sins" come up which scholars consider a different stage of theological development

  AFTER Paul.
• 

  Robdar

  Terry, you have done an excellent job of explaining Jewish atonement.

  Those three magic words used to feel false to me. I much more prefer the Jewish way. It's a humbling experience to approach somebody and ask for their forgiveness. If you seek forgiveness and the person you offended refuses to grant it, you have still done your part. If you are turned down three times, you are not required to ask again.

  You are not obligated to grant forgiveness if you have genuine reason to believe the one apologizing is not being sincere.
• 

  Terry

  Jesus became the whole human race by taking the place of the father of the whole human race.

  It was Adam who offended God.

  God, then, FORGIVES Adam (doppleganger Jesus!).

  Each time an offspring of Adam appeals to that forgiveness (as an heir) it is said to apply to them.

  Question: Why forgive Adam this second time?

  The New Testament sort of gives the doppleganger Adam (played by Jesus) a second chance by proxy

  and lets Adam cheat by letting a ringer do his homework for him (no sins committed by righteous Jesus.)

  Notice how twisted Christian "logic" becomes in trying to get Jehovah to forgive sinners through Jesus!
• 

  tec

  Terry - I cannot speak for what different theologians teach or think.

  But a truly penitent heart would seek to make amends with the one he/she offended.

  Jesus told us to confront the one who wrongs us...(which gives them a chance to admit wrongdoing and make amends/ask forgiveness) and to forgive the one who asks forgiveness, from the heart and no matter how many times they come and repent to us - so that our Father in heaven can forgive us when we ask for it.

  Also, I don't know about Judaism today, but the Israelites used to offer sin offerings to God; and they used to send a goat into the desert to take away all the sins of the people once a year. So there was still the thought of receiving God's forgiveness for sins that go against God's commands, on top of individual forgiveness for individual sins against another person. Christians have never needed a goat. We have Jesus interceding on our behalf, as he has been for two thousand years.

  Tammy
• 

  thetrueone

  I had a dream once where people were lined up at a Kingdom Hall front entrance.

  There was a revolving door in continuing rotation where people were going in and immediately coming out.

  There was a big flashing neon sign above the door saying " Redemption and Forgiveness for Sins "

  Sometimes its not the best to associate with people who are on a

  continuing self induced redemption program.
• 

  Terry

  Jesus told us to confront the one who wrongs us...(which gives them a chance to admit wrongdoing and make amends/ask forgiveness) and to forgive the one who asks forgiveness, from the heart and no matter how many times they come and repent to us - so that our Father in heaven can forgive us when we ask for it.

  Jesus was a Rabbi. He was Jewish. There was no Christianity when he was alive.

  Jesus said nothing new, but, only emphasized the "should" in forgive. There was no moral obligation to do so.

  Jesus tried to make it logical on a "tit for tat" basis. "Why should God forgive your wrongs against Him if you won't forgive the wrongs of others

  against you?" That sort of fairness is typical Jesus.

  What eventually became Christianity in an INSTITUTIONAL way is the end point in a whole series of ideas by various Jewish factions within

  Judaism and early neo-Christianity.

  Even today there is no consensus on all points of Christian theology. That is why there are so many denominations!

  (Edited to say: The bragging rights of certain Christians is that their own forgiveness BY God is guaranteed no matter how imperfect they are completely OVERLOOKS the fact they still must seek forgiveness from humans whom they wrong!)
• 

  PSacramento

  Peter asked Jesus how many times should he forgive someone the sins against him and jesus said, in a nutshell, as long as he keeps sinning against you.

  In Christianity you are taught that only God can forgive sins, but this is the ultimate aspect of Forgiveness.

  You ask me to forgive you for doing something bad, and I forgive you, BUT you must still ask God forgivenes also, that is the sign of pure repentence.

  "Forgive one another as you would have your father forgive you", "forgive your brother as you would have him forgive you".

  It is about personal accountability before the person wronged AND before God.