The Born Again Experience
by leavingwt 63 Replies latest jw friends
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passwordprotected
Is it absolutely true that the born again experience is borne out of "group dynamics", etc? I personally haven't had a euphoric born-again experience, but I tend to agree that the overly emotional ones come out of churches that foster and encourage that sort of 'behaviour'.
Does wishful thinking mean that the thing we think about wishfully doesn't exist or can't actually be real?
Finally, as a Christian, here's how the transformation that comes through being born again takes place;
Romans 5: 5 and h hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love i has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
Gal 5: 22 But e the fruit of the Spirit is f love, joy, peace, patience, g kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
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leavingwt
bttt
Dr. Tarico, in a recent letter to John W. Loftus. . .
John, you have asked me to respond to a critique at the site, Triablogue, of my chapter, “Christian Belief Through the Lens of Cognitive Science” for The Christian Delusion. Reading the critique, I am struck, primarily, by the perception that the reviewers, in attempting to state their case, overstate mine. Psychology is a profession focused not on possibilities but on practicalities – not on how things might function in an abstract, philosophical sense, but rather on what we can know about how they do function in the ordinary lives of ordinary humans (and sometimes other species). Psychology asks and attempts to answer a set of questions regarding the contingencies–-replicable cause and effect relationships—that govern people’s lives. At this level of analysis, there is a tentative but useful distinction between knowing and not knowing.
The process of inquiry to which I refer asks and answers questions about the natural world—the physical world as it is represented in consciousness. It seeks out regularities that allow us to predict and control events to better shape life according to our values and preferences. My own writing makes no attempt to rule out the possibility of a god or to assert that the plane of our conscious experience is the only one that exists.
Why then is it relevant to the multi-faceted debate about Christianity? For several reasons:
1. Christianity makes many testable assertions about events and contingencies within our natural world. The role of the historian, linguist, biologist or—in my case-psychologist is to address these assertions using the tools of his or her trade. For generations Christianity has implicitly or explicitly exploited certain psychological phenomena-the born again experience, mystical visions, glossolalia, or a quiet certainty of God’s presence-insisting that they were the unique domain of believers, evidence of salvation. Thanks to advances in the social sciences, we now know otherwise. As I commented in the chapter, “Humans are capable of having transcendent, transformative experiences in the absence of any given dogma. We are capable of sustaining elaborate systems of false belief and transmitting them to our children. We are capable of feeling so certain about our false beliefs that we are willing to kill or die for them.” Because of advances in our understanding of the human psyche, we have a better and better understanding of the circumstances that trigger such experiences. Understanding these phenomena means that believers or potential believers or former believers need no longer be bound by the explanations offered in the service of recruitment or retention.
2. Christianity exists not because it is philosophically possible but it is emotionally and intuitively gripping. Religion would be impotent in this world if it were dependent on the arguments of theologians and philosophers. The power of religion to shape society for better or worse relies on human behavioral and cognitive tendencies which appear to operate independent of the content of beliefs and independent of whether or not some supernatural plane exists. Whether or not a god or gods exist, these tendencies are worth examining. For those who are concerned that humanity is developmentally arrested, stuck in a competition between mutually exclusive tribal religions, understanding the problem is a crucial first step in crafting alternatives.
3. My perception is that Christianity is bled dry morally, empirically, and rationally not by a single swath of logic, but by a million cuts. Again, in the interest of efficiency, I will quote myself, this time from Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light: “When one examines the evidence related to Evangelical beliefs — the content and history of the Bible, the structure of nature’s design, the character of the Evangelical God, the implications of prayer and miracles, the concepts original and universal sin, the mechanism of salvation by blood atonement, the idea of eternal reward and punishment, the behavior of believers — when one examines all of these together through a lens of empiricism and logic, the composite suggests some kind of reality that is very different from the ideas that dominated my thinking for so long.”
The possibility that Christianity—along with say Islam, Hinduism—is a human construction raises fascinating questions about the human potential to be simultaneously sure and mistaken. It raises questions about the power of culture to script a world view. Religion contemplated as a natural phenomenon begs exploration. Consider, for example, the status of the Triabloggers—all intelligent, knowledgeable, articulate thinkers capable of more abstraction than most. To contemplate the possibility that they are wrong—you and I believe they are—about the uniqueness and supremacy of their religious beliefs means that the existence of such believers must be explicable in natural terms. If I am correct, then their presence provides a powerful example of how very sophisticated our lines of logic can be in the service of fallacy. I suspect the same of the 9/11 Truthers and the Zeitgeist Movement, which is to say that these basic psychological questions have implications for every area in which we humans struggle to understand ourselves and our societies and to shape both according to our deepest values.
Is it possible to weave a web of logic that carves out room for Christian—even orthodox—even Calvinist belief? Can someone imbedded in such a perspective justify what outsiders might perceive as fatal contradictions inherent in his or her worldview? Yes, absolutely. Has this ever really been in doubt? Given the limitations of logic (look how far philosophy got us without adding empiricism to the mix) I suspect this will always be the case, regardless of the arguments put forward in criticism of traditional dogmas. I do think that the abstract machinations of theologians should be answered by philosophers and thinkers who, like yourself, are not imbedded with the troops, if for no reason other than to keep foolishness like C.S. Lewis’s trilemma or Pascal’s wager from entering the vernacular as glib defenses of dogmas that are indefensible in a broader empirical historical context. But I am also grateful that reshaping ideology and religious practice doesn’t rely on someone winning these arguments.
Since Christianity is a social, historical, natural world phenomenon, it is accessible to the same scrutiny as any human activity. Religion often convinces us to set aside the basic evidentiary standards that we use in making financial investments or legal decisions. It is a peculiar sort of exceptionalism that subjects economic and political ideologies/activities to empirical evidence and Occam’s Razor, while insisting that these are irrelevant in assessment of religion. Great teams of scholars--with no interest in religion whatsoever--spend their lives trying to understand basic patterns in human history, thought, and behavior. To me, it makes sense to apply this knowledge, to ask what we can know about how religion operates in this world--how it has evolved, how it shapes societies, how it ensconces itself in the human psyche--only then returning to the speculation of the ancients about what lies beyond.
Sincerely,
Valeriehttp://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/07/dr-valerie-tarico-responds-to.html
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leavingwt
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Lozhasleft
leavingwt - It really wont matter what is said or what is read - to those of us who've experienced what I believe was an anointing it was/is too very profound and sure to be mistaken for anything else. Its interesting to read how some may be confused by other issues but we aren't left in any doubt or uncertainty.
Loz x
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leavingwt
It really wont matter what is said or what is read - to those of us who've experienced what I believe was an anointing it was/is too very profound and sure to be mistaken for anything else. Its interesting to read how some may be confused by other issues but we aren't left in any doubt or uncertainty.
How do you feel about people with similar experiences -- within other faiths that conflict with your own on big issues?
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Mall Cop
NOT ALL EXPERIENCES COME FROM JESUS. SO, WHICH EXPERIENCES ARE THE ONES COMING FROM A GOD EXPERIENCE?
iIBELIEVE THAT THE DENIAL OF DEATH, THE LONGING FOR LIFE EVERLASTING IS THE TRUE CAUSE BEHIND THESES EXPERIENCES.
OUR OWN MORTALITY IS VERY HARD TO ACCEPT. RELIGIOUS BELIEF SYSTEMS THROUGHOUT THE WORLD HELPS SOME TO DEAL WITH THE FINALITY OF THEIR DEATH.
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Lozhasleft
I dont think 'anointing' is restricted to JWs nor any other particular religion leavingwt ... I believe the calling comes from God to whosoever he chooses and for his own reasons...mine is not to reason why...
Loz x
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PSacramento
"So, are you a born again Christian?", someone asked me.
I said No, but it made me think, "am I?"
I had an intensly spiritual experience that brought me in contact with Jesus, it didn't involve water or baptisim or anything other than Love and KNOWING Jesus.
Was I born again in the spirit? I am not sure what that means, truly...I now know that Jesus and God had always been there and will always be there but I still don't feel compelled to get "re-baptized" or any other symbolic act and I have no issues when someone of another faith tells me that had a religious/spiritual experience with God, I don't think God is unique to Christians and that God speaks to Hearts, not religions.
There is only one Christ (annointed) though and NO OTHERS can claim to be annointed, there is no "annointed class", Christ is singular and is applied ONLY to Jesus, All of us can receive the HS and be sealed by it, but that doesn't make us annointed, only Jesus is Christ.
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Chalam
OK, here's some verses on the matter.
2 Corinthians 5:17 (New International Version)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
Galatians 6:15 (New International Version)
15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
John 3:5 (New International Version)
5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Luke 17:21 (New International Version)
21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
John 3:7 (New International Version)
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'
Romans 8:29 (New International Version)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Colossians 1:15 (New International Version)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:18 (New International Version)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Hebrews 12:23 (New International Version)
23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect
John 6:53-54 (New International Version)
53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
So what is it to be "born again" a "new creation"?
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (New International Version)
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
If you are reborn, you are a new creation, "born from above" (see the NIV footnote John 3:3) spiritually alive to God, reconciled to the Father through Jesus, with your sins not counted against you.
Yes, you still have "the flesh" which will die one day, along with its sinful desires.
John 11:25-26 (New International Version)
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Romans 8:13 (English Standard Version)
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
So what happens when you are "born again"?
Ephesians 1:13-14 (New International Version)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
You believe the gospel and the Holy Spirit comes to live within you.
Does one need to have "an experience"?
No, it comes by faith Hebrews 11
Can one have "spiritual experience"?
Certainly Acts 2
One important point to note is that "baptism of the Spirit" is another experience which possible might happen at the time of being born again but quite often some time after or not at all. That said, Spirit baptism (not to be confused with water baptism) is for all who believe!
Acts 19:1-7 (New International Version)
Paul in Ephesus
1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.
Are there other "spiritual experiences" outside of the Kingdom which are like being born again or baptism in the Spirit?
Certainly, there are plenty of counterfeits out there, many which will give you a "feel good" factor for a time. However, look for the fruit. Any lasting peace? Any lasting joy? Any nasty side effects?
Blessings,
Stephen
: “When one examines the evidence related to Evangelical beliefs — the content and history of the Bible, the structure of nature’s design, the character of the Evangelical God, the implications of prayer and miracles, the concepts original and universal sin, the mechanism of salvation by blood atonement, the idea of eternal reward and punishment, the behavior of believers — when one examines all of these together through a lens of empiricism and logic, the composite suggests some kind of reality that is very different from the ideas that dominated my thinking for so long.”