I challenge Joelbear to a DUEL

by Mindchild 24 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Mindchild

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  MINDCHILD vs. JOELBEAR
  AKA Skipper AKA Joel

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  In the view of Jurors of the Grand Jury of Participants of Simon’s Board, within the website of JehovahsWitnesses.Com, hereby one Mindchild summons one Joelbear, on or about, henceforth, the date of this post, to a duel of competing paradigms. To Wit: Does the Jehovah’s Witness ideology deserve the same respect as any common established religion? Do former members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses have not only the right, but also the duty to disgrace, defile, and condemn the actions and dogma of the Watchtower Society? Should we respect the decision of someone to become a Jehovah’s Witness or return to their belief system?

  It is the demonstrated view of Mindchild that the cumulative effect of actions and beliefs of the Watchtower Society inspire disgust or revulsion in persons with ordinary sensibilities and that their belief system is reckless as heretofore evident in display of posts on this site and from personal experience with the Watchtower Society. Mindchild maintains that the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not deserve respect as an established, common religion, and that the actions of the Watchtower Society are criminal against all humanity. Mindchild further argues that respecting the decision of someone to become a Jehovah’s Witness, either by original indoctrination or a person returning to Jehovah’s Witnesses is not proper and is like wishing someone to experience gross exploitation for a commercial corporation that regard the ruination of lives as a natural consequence of doing business.

  I offer for evidence that Joelbear does not support this worldview by his posts in several threads, which include:
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19248&site=3
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19051&site=3

  I quote a brief segment of Joel’s posts here:

  I believe the discussion board has become unbalanced to the point that a true discussion cannot take place. I see a progression of posters that I care about becoming more negative over time. I have always believed that the harsh words exchanged here between people are inappropriate for the seriousness of the discussion. This situation continues to get worse not better.

  I do not believe that Jehovah's Witnesses should be mocked for their beliefs. Again, the matter is simply too serious. This is simply an application of Matthew 7:12. You can't use the excuse that they do it so its okay for you to do it, its harmful and shouldn't be done.

  I do not believe that we should loosely make swipes at all 6 million Jehovah's Witnesses with rash statements like, none of them love god, or, they all hide pedophiles. I get a sense that child abuse victims are being used rather than helped with this anti- Watchtower crusade. I have no proof. I indeed hope I am totally wrong. I have received private emails from people I trust who know personally of pedophilia cover ups involving people that I have known. This subject makes me ill. I don't believe a public discussion board is the place to make accusations or for victims to seek assistance.

  I do honestly feel that many here including myself have let our animosity towards the witnesses cloud our thinking about what is indeed true.

  I HEREBY challenge Joelbear to appear, under the penalty of public opinion, before his friends and my friends to discuss this important issue that goes beyond mere opinions. My intention is not to mock or shame Joelbear but to engage in a vigorous not viperous discussion that should help everyone here decide for themselves what the proper thing is to do, and make for an excellent reference for others in the future about these issues.

  In regard to the important nature of this discussion, Joelbear and Mindchild may at their own requests invite participation for those who support their views, or by having people here simply volunteer their own ideas in the threads. I would like however at this time to invite someone to play the role of JUDGE to only make sure we keep the postings in line with the spirit of fair play, to avoid name calling and character assassination by any parties and to more or less keep things focused on the issues. The winner of the debate is for each reader to decide. Hopefully all will enjoy good information and lots of fun if we can keep things civil.

  Ok Joel…I give you the opportunity to present your opening arguments and to define your position. Again, please don’t look at this as a personal attack but as an opportunity to both share your views and perhaps grow.

  This document was prepared by I. P. Standing,
  Deputy Clerk of the Common Please
  
  Skipper
• 

  joelbear

  I don't think I can say much more than I have already said.

  I surrender unequivocally and recognize that I have given up my rights to participation in this forum for the crime of believing that there is anything at all positive about the teachings and values of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I surrender unequivocally and recognize that I have given up my
  rights to participation in this forum for the crime of believing that
  there is any benefit to discussing the downside of an outright and total hatred for the teachings, values and guidelines of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I surrender unequivocally and recognize that I have given up my
  rights to participation in this forum for the crime of questioning even the most outrageous accusations made in regard to Jehovah's Witnesses.

  You win.

  Joel
• 

  Preston

  I truly believe Joel is one of the kindest most sympathetic people I have met on the boards, and even though I'm not as regular of a poster as many of you are, Joel was merely stating what I and many other people here have observed, that there has been a lot of hatred, maybe too much for some people who have had to leave an organization that indirectly taught hatred for certain groups of people. Of all the people here at JW.com, Joel has been the most supportive of my "coming out" process and as a self-identified queer, innactive JW. This is suppose to be a haven for people to discuss what it's like to be a JW, ex-JW, or what have you. Likewise, I think our discussions should be based on an unbiased look at what is addressed, something that is of much concern to people like myself and Joel. This is what Joel has done, and I think elevating disagrements, no matter how valid, to that of a huge challenge like this IMHO isn't evryone's cup of tea.
• 

  Xena

  It's funny I have found on this board that most people are pretty openminded about most things..

  We open our minds to evolution, we open our minds to a world where we determine our own fates, we open our minds regarding our sexuality, we open our minds to just about anything but the fact that maybe just maybe there is a tiny bit of good in some of the active JW's. If anyone even suggests this concept they are branded a troll or accused of wanting to go back to the org or put on "trial" for their ideas.

  I am sorry Joelbear that you feel you have no right to participate in this forum because your beliefs don't correspond with the "Politically Correct" venue here. I completely understand why you feel this way and I think it is a sad commentary on this community.

  lol I get the feeling I am just as lousy an ExJW as I was an active JW.
• 

  Satanus

  Joel

  Sorry to poke my nose in here. I do so out of a real desire to understand the reason for you decision. I have previously stated on this board that your desicion should be respected. However, as far as i know, you didn't give a clear statement as to why you decided to return to the wt.

  Previously, on the occassion when you stated your decision to withdraw from this board, many who cared for you and your wellbeing, including myself, wished you well or appealed to you to reconsider. To me, it would seem that out of respect for the affections of many on this board, the least you could do, after this most recent decision to return to the wt, would be to give a reason WHY?!

  Thanks SS
• 

  Inquiry

  hey Joel... I know this is a bit off of the posted topic but I discovered someone by watching Man Alive... it's a canadian program that I sometimes watch... the last one interviewed an Episcopalian Bishop named John Shelby Spong.... He broke with contemporary church doctrine and has written many books about his research and his view of the bible... I was intrigued.. for my part I am much more agnostic now, especially considering my personal WT experience, but I found what he had to say interesting and worth consideration.... He's written a book called "Living in Sin? : A Bishop Rethinks Human Sexuality". He's got his historical information down and his resume is very impressive... http://newark.rutgers.edu/~lcrew/spong_cv.html
  Now, I am in no way espousing the Episcopalian church... I don't do churches anymore, or organized religion ... but I try to keep an open mind...
  I thought this might be helpful to you... I am worried that in trying to satisfy your spiritual needs that you don't consider your own personal circumstances... I don't know how you can be a homosexual and have your spiritual needs accomodated by the WT.... the two are not compatible in any way and this move could prove to be so very detrimental to you.... Your an intelligent and caring individual and I hope that you don't find this post offensive... it's just a suggestion.... please tell me what you think of it....
  I hope all is well with you...
  take care
  Inq
• 

  refiners fire

  Looks like Joel bear dont want to take the mind on. Like me hes probably INTIMIDATED by all the BIG words the mind uses.And like me it seems he aint inclined to cutting and pasting quotes outta threads as evidence of contradicting statements.
  I think Xena is a GREAT ex witness.
  Compassionale, fair.
  As for the minds position....You set up a position indicating the WT must be crushed, wiped out.
  This is a fantasy we all have. I dream about it sometimes.
  That Bethel is blasted to the ground and the GB are dead.But what is that except a dream of vengeance.
  I cant hold the CONSCIOUS opinion that murder and vengeance are good things, even tolerable things. But deep inside...my animal side yearns for blood vengeance. Who says I am rational huh?
  When Im awake and rational, I think tolerance of some kind.
  They shouldnt be allowed to disseminate their totalistic doctrine,
  shouldnt be allowed to recruit.
  What needs to happen, I think, there needs to come drive from government, somehow, outlawing certain practises.
  Totalistic beliefs being disseminated.
  Just imagine if there was law banning any religion from INDICATING
  that its God talking when they speak.
  What would be the result of that?
  It would have a HUGE effect.
  If such a law were initiated,organizations like the dube would have to remodel, alter their patterns of behaviour, communication.
  In all likelihood they wouldnt survive the shift.
  Big loss to the world.
  No people, we should be working for government action.
  I think the understanding of the world is shifting where that which of I speak is becoming more possible.
  Mind...if you wanna arguement..I ll have a piece of your ass..
• 

  tyydyy

  Didn't you guys read that JOEL IS NOT RETURNING TO THE WITNESSES!
  It was just temporary insanity. Most of us have felt the urge to renew the lifelong friendships we have lost. Especially when we are feeling down. Do your best to be civilized human beings and don't treat him like a troll.

  Mindchild, You should be ashamed of yourself for even starting this thread when you know the man is obviously suffering. Putting someone on trial suggests that he is a criminal. That, my friend, is going to tough to prove. In the meantime you submit a friend of this board to humiliations that he doesn't deserve. If I have mistaken the tone of your post then I reckon some others have too. You might want to reconsider.

  TimB
• 

  Yadirf

  Mindchild (aka SkiPPer)

  This document was prepared by I. P. Standing,

  You're a squatter, and you know it. You're every word is a dead giveaway. Tell me, Childmind, do you wear your sanitary napkins on the inside or the outside?

  Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
• 

  Mindchild

  Joel...I buy you books and you eat the covers...lol. I was hoping that you would be open to discussing these issues in more depth, not for the idea of winning any person confrontation between you and myself, but to look and see what the merits of the arguements are on both sides. To present those arguements in a clear and effective way so that others can make their own informed decisions.

  Yes Joel, there are a lot of very angry people here on this site that are in various stages of recovery from their experiences with the Borg. If you write everything off as just anger and hatred though you are missing the boat as much as a person blinded by anger and hatred. Neither are a win win situation.

  You are right that we should look at things without the anger and hatred but it is damned hard to be objective sometimes when you are still being bit on the ass by the Borg. Still it isn't impossible to set out the reasons why you think the way you do. I'm curious for instance as to why you think we should have any respect for the WTS because they may for instance have some good values. They certainly do have some good values, but then so do individuals in the Mafia. The Mafia encourages loyalty, family ties, and some other things yet you rarely hear anyone speaking on their behalf claiming that the reason people hate them is because they are full of anger and hate. We recognize the Mafia for what it is, a criminal organization. An organization that is 80% bad and 20% good doesn't deserve respect does it? Is the ideology of Jehovah's Witnesses any better than the Mafia? If you have any proof behind your views or at least evidence that leads you to think so, you should put it out here.

  None of this argues that you are not a good guy Joel. Preston mentions your track record and I have looked at it before myself in your past posts. We are not talking about individuals and their merits though, this is not about you personally at all. This is about the collective emergence of what people with good intentions created...a monster: The WTS. I feel that monster should be exposed in a way that is fair, and rational. That is what I hoped you could see. Maybe I've gone overboard in being zealous to kick Watchtower Ass, as some others have but I would rather err in that direction than the other.

  Kind Regards,

  Skipper