A Message To All Creationists

by Megachusen 23 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Megachusen

  Recently I read the following from themadjw's retarded website:

  "No one would claim that the simplest device- such as, say, a pen, could EVER come about, given all Eternity, by ACCIDENT!"

  Wow! Somehow it manages to be wrong in the first paragraph!

  Actually, it could. An infinite amount of time would imply infinite probability. Infinite probability means that every single thing possible would occur eventually. And since you're speaking about eternity here the word "eventually" becomes meaningless.

  Thus given eternity, a pencil would be sure to happen by "accident"(though real accidents don't happen in a universe that is under the influence of cause and effect).

  This seems to be a recurrent argument with creationists and so I figured I'd try to bust this one open.

  Thank you for your time.
• 

  bohm

  im gonna have to play the devils advocate here

  "Actually, it could. An infinite amount of time would imply infinite probability. "

  Probability is (with the usual choice of normalization) numbers between 0 and 1. So i think you want to say "infinite amount of time would imply probability 1". But that statement is ALSO wrong. Lets say we have countable infinite time (ie. a sample is drawn for each of the natural numbers) but an uncountable event space (say the interval [0 1] - the probability that a given (random) event is part of the (countable) infinite sample is 0!

  At any rate, the point is moot - we have only finite time. life on earth have only existed in 3-4 bil. years.

  Thus given eternity, a pencil would be sure to happen by "accident"(though real accidents don't happen in a universe that is under the influence of cause and effect).

  You mean quantum fluctuations would assemble a pencil? its a rather artificial situation and i for one am not certain that statement is even true in any meaningfull interpretation of what a 'pencil' is - at any rate, it is *not* a given thing it would happend in a finite-time universe, such as ours.

  Good point you ask about what an 'accident' is. I doubt the mad jw have a clue but just use it because he read it on AIG.
• 

  The Finger

  I thought time was related to our Universe and time began at the big bang, which I thought was the beginning of our Universe. I think I remember reading that if you go far enough in the Universe time could run backwards and time runs at different times depending where you are so to speak.

  So does eternity exist without time? I could be totally misunderstanding these concepts.
• 

  Megachusen

  "it is *not* a given thing it would happend in a finite-time universe, such as ours."

  I never said our universe had infinite time.

  Edit: Also I'm not sure your concept of taking a sample of an infinite time period is possible. Our concept of pretty much anything breaks down when infinity is considered. In fact, "infinity" may not even be possible in our universe or any other.

  However, many of these people like to use words like "eternity", "eternal", and "forever". I was trying to combat these terms.
• 

  bohm

  sorry if i came off a bit rude :-). When debating creationists it is very important to be exact!

  But TMJW is (ofcourse) completely wrong. First off, Organic molecules are (in the context of life) allways assumed to be dissolved in water where they can float around an interact in many different ways. Nothing similar can happend with the molecules a pen consist of. So: Argument from false analogy: CHECK!

  Second off, its difficult to see what TMJW is arguing against, abiogenesiss or evolution.

  Thirdly, the word 'accident'. Im not sure what TMJW actually mean, but i assume he mean something like chance. In that case much of my critisism from this thread applies:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/192117/1/Putting-the-probability-argument-against-abiogenesis-in-the-grave-once-and-for-all

  "Amongst the many arguments for and against creation the probability arguments stands out. It goes something like this:

  “the improbability of generating the necessary proteins by chance—or the genetic information to produce them—to balloon beyond comprehension. ... The odds of getting even one functional protein of modest length (150 amino acids) by chance from a prebioitc soup is no better than 1 chance in 10164.” Meyer continues, “Another way to say that is the probability of finding a functional protein by chance alone is a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion times smaller than the odds of finding a single specific particle among all the particles in the universe.”

  The evidence for the probability of origin of life arising from Darwin’s “warm little pond” seems to have vanished beyond the realm of any possibility—regardless of any early Earth scenario.

  I really, really want to put it in the grave because i think its an embaressment to the theists and thinking humans in general; Its right up there with 'noahs ark has been found' and 'humans have less chromosomes than monkeys', but for some reason people dont see through it. "
• 

  Megachusen

  "Second off, its difficult to see what TMJW is arguing against, abiogenesiss or evolution."

  I seriously doubt that your average creationist can tell the difference.
• 

  The Scotsman

  """An infinite amount of time would imply infinite probability"""

  Is this true? I can see where you are coming from - but surely some things within the confines of a physical universe are simply "impossible". Physical laws have a limit, a boundary if you like and thus, this would imply that their is a finite number of possibilities. Infinite time in itself would not be enough.

  If I placed the principle materials of a car in a hole in the ground would "infinite time on its own" produce a fully working car? This surely is not improbable but actually impossible!

  But you are right - infinite time opens the way to possibilities way beyond our comprehension.
• 

  Megachusen

  "If I placed the principle materials of a car in a hole in the ground would "infinite time on its own" produce a fully working car? This surely is not improbable but actually impossible!"

  How do you determine it to be impossible? You can't simple wait till infinity passes and then check to see if the car has assembled itself.

  You're right though, there are many things that, as far as we know, cannot happen in this universe. My point was that with an infinite amount of time everything that was and is possible in the universe that has said infinite time would happen.
• 

  bohm

  hold on people!

  Talking about which events could or could not happend in infinite time is a STRAWMAN! Lets leave the logical fallacies with the creationists and discuss what may or may NOT occur in our finite-time universe!

  We are making it far to easy for them!

  Munch.: just a side note - the concept of infinite was developed rigously by Cantor and others around 1900 (IIRC), its a different but interesting story you may want to check up on. So in mathematical terms (probability theory is a branch of mathematics) taking such an infinite sample is quite well-defined.

  Also, to nitpick - there are plenty of events that would positively never happend in an infinite time universe. For example FTL information transformation or a counter-example to pythagoras theorem.
• 

  The Scotsman

  How do you determine it to be impossible?

  Based on what we already know - cars are built by intelligent people - no other method has been discovered. This is all we have in the way of tangible factual information.

  My point was that with an infinite amount of time everything that was and is possible in the universe that has said infinite time would happen.

  Yes you are correct - which means if I purchased a Lottery ticket each week I would eventually win the jackpot.

  Come on Lotto....