Misdiagnosis

by larc 20 Replies latest jw friends

Mindchild

Thank You Lark for bringing this up. This certainly deserves our attention. I liked your comments too Teejay.
Skipper
larc

Teejay,
You gave me a lot to think about and I will give a full response to your very good thoughts, but I can't right now. I have been up all night and sleep beckons me.
GinnyTosken

Under American law, a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof rests on whoever makes an accusation. The person who called Hillary_step a troll should be asked for his proof; Hillary_step is not obliged to prove anything.
It's the same whenever one person calls another person a liar. Whoever makes the accusation is under obligation to prove that his claim is true. The person accused is under no obligation.
See http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html
Hillary_step left. That was Hillary_step's choice. Who and what influenced him to make that decision? Only he can say. Each of us can estimate the share we had in influencing Hillary_step's decision, but only he knows for sure.
Words in and of themselves have no power: "Tomme tønner ramler mest." Are those words insulting? Funny? Kind? The power of words comes from the meanings we ascribe to them, the interpretations we form from them, and how much weight we give to the opinion of the person speaking or writing them. An insult from a person for whom I care deeply will usually wound more than an insult from someone I don't know. Even then it will depend on the circumstances. Was my friend upset? Angry about something else and venting at me? Misinformed?
The degree of our influence can also be affected by chance. I may carelessly toss a banana peel. I haven't intended to cause harm. Someone else comes along, slips, and breaks a leg. Every time I get behind the wheel of my car, I take the risk that I may have a wreck and permanently alter the life of someone I don't know.
Sometimes we intend to help and end up causing someone harm. Sometimes we intend to harm and end up helping. Sometimes an act we initially consider to be harmful helps us grow in the end.
See Esmeralda's post, "Disfellowshipping: A protection in the end?"
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=18180&site=3
Our beliefs filter our perceptions, and our perceptions affect our interpretations of words and events. Once I stopped believing in the JW dogma, the words of the elders had much less power to harm me. Now I can laugh at their kangaroo courts, yet their words still have power over my family members who believe. Why is that?
It's like Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz. We're wearing the ruby slippers all the time and have the power to go home, but we don't realize it. Because of my beliefs, I chose to give the words of the elders power. Once I no longer believed, I took back the power I had given them over me. I cannot hide from the fact that as an adult, I chose to give most of my power away to the Watchtower Society. The contract of beliefs included that as a woman I would subject myself to the authority of elders and men. I chose to do that.
If this example doesn't help, consider the case of Hitler in Germany. Why did the Germans choose to obey Hitler? Why did his words have power over them? Norway was occupied, and so was Denmark, but a majority of people in those countries chose to resist. Sociologists and psychologists are still trying to sort out why the German people succumbed. In Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust, Daniel Jonah Goldhagen maintains that the central component was the force of Nazi ideology, particularly antisemitism. He shows that antisemitism was the "common sense" of German society during the Nazi period and long before.
Germans chose to give their power to Hitler because they believed. Most Norwegians and Danes did not believe in Nazi ideology and were not antisemitic. They chose to resist.
If I am a conscientious person, I will consider the effects my choices may have on others when I decide what to do. I can only guess at what effect my words and actions will have and must make the best choice I can in each instance.
Ginny
There is a Taoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically.
"May be," the farmer replied.
The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful!" the neighbors exclaimed.
"May be," replied the old man.
The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.
"May be," answered the farmer.
The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out.
"May be," said the farmer.
from http://www.rider.edu/users/suler/zenstory/maybe.html
larc

Teejay,
I hadn't thought about the false negative issue, but you are right, they can do enormous harm. I know of one person who used to post here, who fits that description. He came across as a real nice guy. I have personal information about this person that indicates that he is a very dangerous hurtful person, not on the board, but in his personal dealings with people.
Ginny,
When I refer to Hillary, I am not talking his recent leaving, which he described as a vacation, not a permanent leave. I am referring to his initial introduction to the board. Now, you say it is up to the person who is hurling the names to prove it. That may be true in a legal sense, but in our world, the mere accusation can drive people away, which almost happened in Hillary's case. I am sure that this has happened to others. I am also sure that the insults viewed here have driven away nervous lurkers as well.
Back to Teejay,
You are right that some people may have bought into the misdiagnosis of Hillary because of the percieved credility of those that hurled the accusations. I didn't buy into it, and I sent Hillary personal emails at that time. Teejay, we have had our disagreements, but one thing we share in common is that we try to call them as we see them. As far a I am concerned, a poster is only a good as their last post. Although I am sure I am influenced by personal likes and dislikes, I will call a poster on something that I don't agree with even if I have a good relationship with them in the past.
Well, I must be off - of course all of you already knew that - hee hee
GinnyTosken

Larc,
I understood that you were talking about Hillary_step's initial introduction to the board. I can only repeat what I said before:
If I am a conscientious person, I will consider the effects my choices may have on others when I decide what to do. I can only guess at what effect my words and actions will have and must make the best choice I can in each instance.
[I'm editing this post to add that I also think it's very important to remember that many of the people who come to this site will likely not have a strong sense of self and may be highly suggestible. We can each conscientiously try to find a balance between caring for our own needs and looking out for the needs of others. Personally, I don't feel that I must return to JW-speak, but I don't jump in a newbie's face with accusations, either.]

I am very sorry about what happened to Hillary_step, but I also understand that this discussion board suffers from what MommieDark calls the "bell jar effect." Most of us here were wounded in similar ways. We all come here in various stages of grief--anger, sadness, guilt, remorse, inadequacy, depression. While I feel for the newbie posting his first post, I also try to make allowances for the people who are already here. We're all learning and coping with our own hurt feelings. While I wish we would all react in ways that show understanding, compassion, and maturity, I realize that it is unrealistic to expect this from a bell jar full of hurting people.
I think the best we can hope for is a balance between reactions. I'm glad you were there to offer a hand to Hillary_step. I hope that at least one of us in the bell jar will be there with a welcoming word when newbies arrive. From what I've observed, this is usually true.
I'm glad you posted. It helps to be reminded of how a chance encounter can affect someone's life.
Ginny
Ranchette

Lark,
Please forgive me but I am still in FLUFFMODE.
All this talk of true positive, true negetive,false positive and false negative has caused me to think only of a little stick that turns blue or pink if true positive but then again it could be a false positive.
I'm so confused are they pregnant or not?
We need a DR!
GinnyTosken

Ranchette,
LOL! It was a lot easier to figure out back when they used rabbits, eh?
Ginny
Ranchette

Lark,
I’m going to attempt to be serious in my down to earth simple manner now.
I have been fooled both ways and I know I’m not the only one.
I have given someone the benefit of the doubt and then later felt like a fool when the person turned out to be nothing but a trouble maker just muddying up the water.
I have also made the mistake of misjudging a poster and have felt terrible for it.
I had to make it right.
Our past experiences tend to bleed over on to others and I don’t know how to stop this from happening.
Is this one of the negative sides of human nature?
I don’t know.
I really can’t discourage people from personally and privately listening to their gut feelings but what I do discourage is labeling others publicly and trying to get a following or ganging up on someone.
As nice as I try to be here I have been pushed over the edge a couple of times and gone against what I really believe in. you know what?It will probably happen again in the future.
I don’t have the answers because it seems it boils down to self regulation and regulation from our peers.
We don’t want a robotic fake atmosphere that comes with a moderated board.
Been there done that!
This board is wonderful, awful, raw, healing, bitter, sweet, and on and on but above all it’s
REAL.
There is nothing wrong with admitting when we are wrong and saying we are sorry.
It is so cleansing and freeing to do this yet so many don’t know this experience.Yet another weakness?
I am probably rambling now so I will close.
larc

Ranchette,
I like your words.
We are all "looking through a glass darkly." (1 Cor. 13) We all make mistakes in judgement. Now, I think in the case of the false positives, that is, accusing someone of something they are not, I would prefer to give the person the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't cost me anything to wait and gather more information, and make a better determination.
Of course, the problem is, when you take the time to gather further information and in the mean time the person you trusted does you harm. It is a tough call, between acceptance of someone, and then being violated by them.
waiting

Hi Larc,
Thanks for the good topic.
It's interesting that you use Hilliary_Step as an example. He came in here with articulate language, not too terrible humble, and held his own with his own style. Of course, that's still the way he posts - and almost all persons, imho, appreciate him and his information.
However, when he came here initially, those same qualities presumably ticked a couple of posters off royally. Why? The framing of his sentence in words some of us didn't like. Several took issue with him - loudly.
accusing someone of something they are not, I would prefer to give the person the benefit of the doubt.
That's a good thing to do - but only works individually. As in the case of Hilliary, the loud, angry posters got attention - and they usually do. The temperate posts got lost in the shuffle. I know - mine was lost for the most part. Only a couple of people screamed "troll!" at him.....but it was enough for the tide to turn into a nasty confrontation with a new person because of the way he worded a sentence. And he held his own. Dispicable troll sin.
SilentLamb & Nute fell to the same argument - the loud insults usually get the most attention. I think that's human nature, I'd do the same. But the newcomer, or the one being insulted, is intending to set the matter straight - as he sees it. The poor newbie is just saying "whaaaaaaaat?" Except for Hilliary - he held his own. Bravo.
Of course, the problem is, when you take the time to gather further information and in the mean time the person you trusted does you harm.
True, but by allowing some time to pass by on a web forum, what actually harm can the other person do in days? This is now a fast paced forum. If they continually start agruments, it'll be noticable. If they're stupid, someone will say so. If they're hussling money.....that becomes evident too.
But to allow a little room for newbies makes sense psychologically speaking.....and civilly speaking. I think it's how most of us would like to be treated, here and in our daily lives.
Show a little restraint until you are really sure about the situation. Give people the benefit of the doubt, for Christ's sake!
waiting

Misdiagnosis

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