Generation - topic dedicated to debator

teel

There was a heated discussion between debator and a few others by hijacking this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/194187/1

I posted here every post on this subject, so you can continue the debate, and leave that thread to its original purpose. Hopefully I got all the relevant posts.

debator:

Mark 13:29-31 (New International Version)

29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 I tell you the truth, this generation [a] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

This is the Prophetic Scripture in Jesus's own words that is causing all the controversy but why are you giving the witnesses hassle over this?

Is Jesus lying here about "Generation"?

Could the apostles makes similar mistakes over Jesus's words?

John 21:22
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

John 21:23
Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?"

Where the disciples condemned for predicting from Jesus words that one of them would not die? For making a mistake and taking Jesus's words as prophecy? No

These were inspired Apostles as well that got this wrong!

Prophecy is about watching the predicted signs being on "watch" being "ready". Witnesses are doing this and if time shows they have not got the correct understanding on a Bible prophecy they will get refined.

Daniel 11:35
Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

Daniel is clear refinement will be needed until "the end". This is especially important for prophecy which has been given us as a subjective proposition to undertsand from reading the signs from actual bible prophecies.

Are you saying God's people will be INSPIRED NOW! to KNOW beyond doubt when Armageddon or Jesus's return is?

It sounds like you are expecting an apostle level of inspiration from the annointed in this time when clearly this has ended with the apostles. And my examples shows the apostles could also make wrong conclusions from Jesus's words on prophecy thinking he had predicted something and not get condemned just refined.

Prophecy understanding is meant to be subjective seen from readable signs happening not an inspired thing.

teel

teel:

Where the disciples condemned for predicting from Jesus words that one of them would not die? For making a mistake and taking Jesus's words as prophecy? No

These were inspired Apostles as well that got this wrong!

Were any of the apostles' mistakes told to other followers as being the "Truth"? Come on, you can surely do better than that... The verses you quoted are about a rumor, not a doctrine.

Prophecy is about watching the predicted signs being on "watch" being "ready". Witnesses are doing this and if time shows they have not got the correct understanding on a Bible prophecy they will get refined.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 : 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

WT: This generation by no means will pass away. This generation is the people that discerned the signs of 1914.

That generation passed away. I draw my conclusions.

teel

Black Sheep:

This is the Prophetic Scripture in Jesus's own words that is causing all the controversy but why are you giving the witnesses hassle over this?

Because the logic they are using to stretch their failed Generation doctrine to make it look like it hasn't quite failed yet, is completely loopy and without any support from the Bible or secular sources.

teel

transhuman68:

It sounds like you are expecting an apostle level of inspiration from the annointed in this time when clearly this has ended with the apostles.

Wow, debator, you are not really keeping up with Jehovah's celestial chariot are you? Haven't you read the latest Watchtowers?

teel

debator:

Hi teel

The greek word translated in English to rumour is funnily enough "logos" one any bible reader would know. Literally the scripture john 21:23 is saying the "word" went out among the apostles. "Rumour" is a bad translation of this since "logos" means they actually understood this to be a teaching, word or saying from Jesus.

Then you quote this misapplying it to witnesses

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 : 21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

You are misapplying it badly. This scripture is specifically to do with getting INSPIRED words from God. If a prophet says he has been inspired directly from God and yet wasn't and so was deliberately lying. Then this applies.

Witnesses do not claim inspiration for their current understandings on inspired bible prophecy. Witnesses also do not claim inpiration for reading signs or calculating Bible chronology from the bible. They claim only bible and spirit guidance which is not the same as saying you have the ability to do inspired expressions from God which is what this scripture is talking about.

Or are you saying the Original inspired prophecies in the bible on Jesus's return and Armegeddon are lies?

So unless you are saying witnesses are claiming to be inspired from God SPECIFICALLY getting words fom him, your scripture simply does not apply.

Hi blacksheep and others

"generation" is Jesus's own prediction. How long a period this entails is the question on the table. You obviously don't agree with witnesses current understanding on this so please feel free to explain how you yourself think it will pan out?

Like I explained we are supposed to take Bible prophecy, signs etc and use them to be "ready" and on "watch" This could mean refinement if mistaken understandings happen. I do not see this negating them as a religion. Perfection in prophecy understanding is not a bible requirement we are just said to use it. If it was required then no religion or person or people would qualify as God's people since the apostles onwards which is ridiculous.

Hi transhuman

Yes I have and they do not claim to be inspired as the bible writers and prophets were so I fail to see your point?

teel

isaacaustin:

Debator:

Mark 13:29-31 (New International Version)

29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. 30 I tell you the truth, this generation [a] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

This is the Prophetic Scripture in Jesus's own words that is causing all the controversy but why are you giving the witnesses hassle over this?

Is Jesus lying here about "Generation"?

My reply: No, the governing body was lying about generation. Go read the WT masthead at the bottom of the first page- prior to Nov 1995.

teel

debator:

Hi isaac

You can prove they had this wrong and were mistaken and needed refining on it and may yet again need refining on it, it is prophecy when all said and done. But since they believed it themselves how can they be "lying"? The apostles thought Jesus would make one of them live until his return and spread this word among themselves. Were the Apostles "lying" or simply mistaken and need of refining?

You deliberately use the emotive accusatory word "lying" but all you can prove is that they were mistaken as much themselves as anyone else in their current understanding of this prophecy so impossible for the epithet "lie" to be used in this case.

teel

isaacaustin:

Refining?? You mean a change was forced on them by a false prophecy. The apostles did not publish their ideas, they simply asked Jesus a question. And subscribing to their mistaken idea was not a forced, mandatory belief to remain one of Jesus followers, as acceptance of the GB's false teachings and prophecies is.

Mistake or lie- still a false prophet.

teel

AnnOMaly:

The greek word translated in English to rumour is funnily enough "logos" one any bible reader would know. Literally the scripture john 21:23 is saying the "word" went out among the apostles. "Rumour" is a bad translation of this since "logos" means they actually understood this to be a teaching, word or saying from Jesus.

But still, (as teel indicated) the 'logos' that circulated among the brethren never became official Christian 'didache,' did it?

teel

AnnOMaly:

You are misapplying it badly. This scripture is specifically to do with getting INSPIRED words from God. If a prophet says he has been inspired directly from God and yet wasn't and so was deliberately lying. Then this applies.
Witnesses do not claim inspiration for their current understandings on inspired bible prophecy. Witnesses also do not claim inpiration for reading signs or calculating Bible chronology from the bible. They claim only bible and spirit guidance which is not the same as saying you have the ability to do inspired expressions from God which is what this scripture is talking about.

Using scriptural references and logic, please explain the difference between 'God-breathed' and 'spirit guided.' Is, for instance, the difference between a 'God-breathed' method of conveying truth and 'spirit guided' method of conveying truth simply a matter of one divinely-sourced method being less reliable than the other? How does it work exactly?

Generation - topic dedicated to debator

Mark 13:29-31 (New International Version)

Mark 13:29-31 (New International Version)

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