What made Jesus' followers believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

by John Kesler 53 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • John Kesler
    John Kesler
    Leolaia:There is a lengthy and thoughtful discussion of this subject in Dale Alison's book Resurrecting Jesus. He takes an anthropological rather than psychological approach and notes how common such reports are among those who are bereaved, as well as the similarities between those experiences and the features of the gospel epiphany narratives. He also describes his own (subjective) experience. What he does is show that it need not be some especially abnormal happenstance but one that fits rather well culturally with the range of human experience.

    Is it also your view that altered-state-induced visions of Jesus were the catalyst for the "appearances" of Jesus narrated in the NT? Allison says that guilt was one of the triggers for these experiences of Jesus, but what about the work of Bruce Malina and Jerome Neyrey, who say that although gulit can be experienced in all cultures, in the ANE, honor and shame were dominant and guilt should not be assumed?

    Leolaia:My own opinion is that the author did not intend the gospel to end this way, and that the ending (as well as the beginning of the gospel) is missing; the evidence for both is quite compelling.

    I've read Robert H. Gundry's reasons for thinking this in his commentary on Mark. What do you consider the most compelling reasons?

    Leolaia:Matthew on the other hand has the appearance occur at a mountain, which is less natural (there is no earlier reference to Jesus telling them to go to a mountain), and which evokes the scene of the transfiguration story.

    In Matthew 28:17, who are the "some" who doubted? There appears to be no consensus if the "some" refers to the 11 disciples or if others are assumed to have joined them. Contextually, it would seem to refer to the disciples, but an argument against this is that "they" wouldn't have worshipped him if they were also part of the "some" who doubted.

    Leolaia:It is noteworthy that what Paul characterizes as a post-resurrection appearance is reported in Acts as an audition and other than the blinding light, is not beheld as such by others.

    Do you think that Acts is accurate in this regard? What exactly do you think that Paul perceived happened to Jesus: an actual physical resurrection or something like what happened to Moses/Enoch/Elijah? Do you think that Paul thought that Cephas, James, "the twelve," and the 500 saw Jesus in the same way that he did (vision?)? Did he really know of 500 such people or was this hyperbole? Thanks for your insights.

    XJW4EVR:This is a rather silly statement, because the "empty tomb" message was a message that the Jewish religious leaders had to account for it by bribing the tomb guards. Further, 50 days is such an incredibly loooooooong time to concoct an "empty-tomb message." Peter referenced the resurrection in his Pentecost sermon (Acts 2:29-36).

    And your proof that there really were guards is what? Matthew (and later, the GPeter) seems to be the only one who knew anything about it. Ditto for Acts and the 50 days. If you are going to accept everything the NT says at face value, then there is really nothing to discuss, because the NT says that Jesus rose from the grave. Most of your post assumes ipso facto the accuracy of everything the NT says.

    XJW4EVR:Further, the empty tomb is a fact that has been affirmed by approximately 75% of the scholars studied by Gary Habermas

    This is about as surprising, or compelling, as saying that 75% of Islamic scholars believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Masses of religious people willing to testify that they witnessed something miraculous is not a compelling reason to believe.

    Check out the claims made by the followers of Sathya Sai Baba at the amazing "Gallery of Miracles" website

    http://www.saibabamiracles.com/

  • cofty
    cofty

    Here is a typical example ...

    Sai Baba appeared in physical form in Stephen Turoff's Spiritual Healing Clinic in Dawnbury, close to London. Sai Baba gave Darshan (sight of a holy man) to the patients in the waiting room and then healed a diabetes patient before he wrote the words "Stephen I am with you" on a wall in the treatment room. Sai Baba then dematerialized his body.

    Only in 1969 did Sai Baba actually leave India, in the usual sense, boarding a plane for Uganda.

  • undercover
    undercover
    What made Jesus' followers believe that Jesus rose from the dead?

    Maybe...since it's all supposition anyway...maybe his apostles didn't believe that Jesus really did rise from the dead.

    Since they were in close association with this revolutionary folk hero maybe they enjoyed some stardom and adoration of their own (kinda like the GB of today). Maybe they saw their status as rock stars about to end with the death of their lead singer.

    So they concocted this miraculous story about Jesus being resurrected, so they could keep all the groupies excited about their specialness. Ya know, like all the groupies that refused to believe that Jim Morrision was really dead.

    So from this desire to remain popular among the left over groupies (and with the good looking lead singer out of the way, more p***y for the bass player and drummer, ya know) sprang a new religion...

  • SAHARA
    SAHARA

    tec says it best

    "One explanation that Jesus' followers believed He rose from the dead is because they actually did see, hear, talk with, and touch him."

    The only thing I would add to this is that because of their being eye witnesses in his appearences after his ressurrection, they became courageous in the face of death when before it, they were cowards...

  • PrimateDave
    PrimateDave

    they became courageous in the face of death

    This proves nothing beyond the simple power of belief. Even Jehovah's Witnesses have died for their belief in things of which they were convinced to be true. Those Witness martyrs never saw Jesus come out of a tomb and be resurrected. They were held in thrall to mind programming which ultimately lead to their deaths. Same thing happened back in Rome. Thank the goddess for the internet so we can immunize ourselves against this meme!

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR
    And your proof that there really were guards is what? Matthew (and later, the GPeter) seems to be the only one who knew anything about it. Ditto for Acts and the 50 days. If you are going to accept everything the NT says at face value, then there is really nothing to discuss, because the NT says that Jesus rose from the grave. Most of your post assumes ipso facto the accuracy of everything the NT says.

    Yes, I do accept the accuracy of the NT. I have yet to see any scholar present viable evidence to the contrary. What is truly sad, is that you appear to have closed your mind to the possibility that the NT is accurate.

    This is about as surprising, or compelling, as saying that 75% of Islamic scholars believe that Muhammad ascended to heaven.

    I did clarify this in my response to Leolaia. The 75% includes scholars from all theological stripes (liberal to conservative) and from 1974 on. I also posted a link to Dr. Habermas' work. Did you look at it, or did you dismiss it?

    Edited to add: Perhaps you would be so kind as to put the following on your future topics: "Those with ideas that run counter to my presuppositions are not welcome to post"?

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    A level of evidence that would pass muster in a court of law trying to prove a crime beyond a reasonable doubt isn't enough. I guess even a cloud of witnesses that died over what they testified they saw isn't enough. Some will even reject direct experience.

    It's a brainwash.

    If that isn't a sort of madness, I don't know what is.

    For those that believe, no evidence is necessary.

    For those that do not, no evidence is sufficient.

    And that is what it boils down to.

    BTS

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt
    For those that believe, no evidence is necessary.

    I think I know you well enough to know that this is not how you truly feel.

    For those that do not, no evidence is sufficient.

    I think you know me well enough to know that this is not how I truly feel.

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    * burp*

    There's more going on than meets the eye, man. I really believe this. It's underneath the surface.

    BTS

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