What is truth? Discussion with my mother

by Soldier77 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Soldier77

  I asked this question to my mother and her husband the other night in a heated debate about the falsehood that the WBTS is teaching its members. I reasoned that their teachings are a contradiction and how can one live their life IN TRUTH, in honesty, without deceit or lies if they accept contradiction within ones faith?

  So again I asked them, "What is truth? You say that the WBTS teaches truth. Yet, here we are and you've admitted that there are a lot of falsehoods and deceptions being taught and or are going on within the organization. So how is that not a contradiction to the statement 'Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth?' Clearly, they do not."

  This sparked something with my mom. She usually goes into a tirade about how the organization is Jehovah's chosen org blah blah blah But what I got was silence, and her husband jumps in and says, "ooookay, lets not go into that right now. I think what you need to understand is that we understand your point and we agree where you're coming from, but where else are we to go if this is not the truth?"

  I replied, "For one, that is not what was said nor the context it was being said, and another thing, I rather not "be with" an organization that is false and hypocritical, committing the unforgivable sin. I can't believe that with the amount of bullshit the both of you have gone through, the amount of abuse you've suffered, that you still think that this is God's organization."

  That is just a smidge of the conversation that went on for 3 hours that night. How would you all respond? What should I have said or not have said? This conversation is one the reoccurs often sol I'd like to be better prepared the next time.

  The dictionary defines truth as: (I wouldn't put it past the WBTS to ban reading the dictionary soon)

  truth / truθ / Show Spelled [ trooth ]

  1 the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth. 2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement. 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths. 4. the state or character of being true. 5. actuality or actual existence. 6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude. 7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness. 8. ( often initial capital letter ) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life. 9. agreement with a standard or original. 10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment. 11. Archaic . fidelity or constancy. Thanks, had to vent...again.
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  not a captive

  What helped me and has helped me talk to soooo many people as I've left and the brief interval where a few JWs watched my exit was this: What will God think of me if I do not take a stand for my conscience?

  I told this to my elders, too. And that gets to be the crux of it: We know what truly believe but the WTS has cut us off from being directly responsible to God. I talked to myself, read the scriptures and realized that I could never be excused for denying the holy spirit in my conscience. I would rather stand before God with a clean conscience than a coward in the Organization. Even if I'm wrong and am honest before God I will be happy to stand in front of him.

  I think your conversation shows a real conscience still is alive . They just need faith in God's mercy and his appreciation for ones who trust him instead of a bunch of liars.

  The truth is God loves them and he is merciful.
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  OnTheWayOut

  “Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts.” -Charles T. Russell
  Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence, pp. 8-9 July 1879

  I haven't been able to use this, but it's my standard answer. "Notice what the WT told us about 'truth.'"

  I would also say that the truth is not afraid of the lies. We put the lamp on top of the lampstand to shine truth on the darkness. We don't cower at the simple suggestion of investigating the darkness. If you will know the truth and it will set you free, then you can read the lies. I know the standard Witness answer is that Satan is crafty, but the standard Bible answer is to investigate and expose the lies.
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  undercover

  "The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life"

  Chapter two - "Why it is Wise to Examine Your Religion"

  Page 13:

  We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated. Are its teachings in full harmony with God's Word, or are they based on traditions of men? If we are lovers of truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination.
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  Sherilynn

  Sounds like your Mother has her doubts but like your Dad still thinking Where not Whom shall we go to. I also give a reply when they use to come by to talk, that I am upholding Jehovah's Integrity by using the Bible as my guide not the Watchtower literature. Also, that God does not Lie but if you want I will show you how the Watchtower does, therefore, how could I continue to attend meetings with an organization that constantly states it alone represents God on Earth but with double talk, outright misquotes, etc. Also, I will attend a meeting if I can read One Watchtower that does not have false statements or misapplied scriptures.

  No one will take me up on this and the only one that did looked at the evidence(WT quotes showing 607 not correct from ex witness website) and said I had better be careful who I showed it to. This was in the very beginning of my exit.

  Just like on Freeminds Tribute to Ray Franz “There is no pillow so soft as a clear conscience.” ~French Proverb

  Keep up the good work by speaking up.
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  Soldier77

  Thank you for the encouraging words Not a Captive.

  OTWO, again you've come with good reasoning, thanks for that tidbit.

  UC, thanks too for that quote. It never ceases to amaze me what is printed and the contradictions the the publications contain. Say one thing yet do another.

  Sherilynn, I'm working on them. It's a remarriage for my mom, but I like this guy and he was an elder for 35+ years and has seen a lot of abuse of power and everything else within the organization.

  What really gets me is that in my family, there are/were 5 elders. I've heard them all, either together or one on one say that there are a lot of things that they didn't agree with. It has always boggled my mind, I've always been the type to bail on someone or something that I didn't agree with, or thought was a total waste of time. Of course, still being "in" is a contradiction to that statement.... I have much to learn... I'm hoping I'm out of the denial stage on on to whatever is coming next.
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  BluesBrother

  For a people who love to call it "The Truth". they are surprisingly flexible about the concept of truth I had a lively discussion after last Sunday's Watchtower Study about the 'generation' thing...I was surprised to hear the admission that "It makes no sense"..So,I said, "What does that say about the Society and the supposed Holy Spirit direction, does the Holy Spirit direct them to print nonsense?" That is no matter, I was told in [essence]..We have to stay loyal and await something better "If they have not had it revealed yet, they have to make a stab at it !" That is crazy..but it is the desperate reasoning of someone who has spent a lifetime within it and could not face the idea that it was not true..
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  Inkie

  Soldier: You said truly,

  I replied, "For one, that is not what was said nor the context it was being said, (Emphasis mine.)

  You are totally correct. The context stated: "Whom shall we go away to? You have the sayings of everlasting life."

  Yaheshua said: "I am the way. . . ."

  Yaheshua said: "I am the . . . truth."

  Yaheshua said: "I am the . . . life."

  There is nowhere to go. There is only a "whom."

  And besides that, I totally agree with you when you said:

  "I['d] rather not "be with" an organization that is false and hypocritical, committing the unforgivable sin. I can't believe that with the amount of bullshit the both of you have gone through, the amount of abuse you've suffered, that you still think that this is God's organization."

  Enough said!
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  Soldier77

  I think they both know that I am setting myself up to walk away and not look back. I'm throwing out a lot of disgust and anger towards the organization in my comments whenever they dare to bring something organization related up.

  Bluesbrother, the longer a person is "in" the more desperate they become to hold on to something, anything because of so much of their time and energy has been wasted and given to the org. Thanks for your experience.

  Thanks lnkie, I love that scripture and I love your thought: "There is nowhere to go. There is only a whom."
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  VoidEater

  Amazing they admitted that they get what you're saying. That suggests they have their own doubts. Suggest gentle but persistent pressure.

  Understandable they still think they have to "go somewhere" - that's the kult mind, thinking they need to be part of that kind of herd. They may be too old ot break that hypnotic mindset. They don't have to "go" anywhere, they need to grow up and be whole within themselves (if one insist, let's say they need a *personal* relationship with Jehovah, not one depending on an organization).