Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance

by confliction 64 Replies latest jw friends

confliction

Hello- I'm arguing with my parents now... well, call it debating. I'm trying to give them a question they'll actually think about- something that will make them WANT to do more research. A question (or questions), that if right, will make them reconsider whether they are in the "truth"...

I'm trying to get them to ask themselves to think harder. Mainly, I brought out the point of how can you actually prove that WE have the holy spirit? They always come up with an excuse, but I don't think they're getting the point, because every answer they come up with just digs them into a hole.
For example, they said "Well who else has unity like our brothers and sisters? We could only have this with the help of the holy spirit". I said that they couldn't say that, because scientologists and mormons have that same "unity" ( I didn't want to say "cult").

They then said, "Well what about the fruitages of the spirit?". I, again referencing to Mormons and some other "religions" like us (more cults) weren't that much different- they just didn't teach the same stuff.
Then my dad told me how "We're the only ones who use god's name. The bible even says that his people would use his name and be his witnesses."
The problem with that, as I told him, is that we named OURSELVES, and it's waaay after the fact. It's like me saying that my next conversation will be with a guy named bob, and then a random guy changes his name to bob to fit the bill.
Now they're encouraging me to do "research", which involves only learning things through WT publications. I tried pointing out the flaw in that, but because I always stopped short of calling WT liars, I couldn't get the logic across that it IS possible they could be wrong.
I told my father that the only real proof that they're backed by Jesus is because they said so, and that technically ANYONE could do that.

So yeah, the arguments I'm trying to use just aren't getting through- I need something that will... fester.
To all brothers / sisters who were what you would call "Strong" in the truth (a.k.a. elders, M.S., pioneers), what was the first doubt that made you start questioning more and more?
jamiebowers

Please be careful. They are going to think that you're an apostate and wil likely remove all outside sources of information like the internet, phone, etc. You can try to get your parents out after you're safely on your own.
mentallyfree31

Here's a list of very thought-provoking questions that helped me as I was leaving. Perhaps you can find one or two in the list that might help stimulate thinking.
-mentallyfree31-
-----------------------
Would you be disfellowshipped today from the Watchtower, if you believed and taught the Society’s doctrines of 1920? _____YES _____NO.
Would a J. W. of 1920 have been "in the truth" if he at that time then believed and taught present-day Watchtower doctrines? _____YES _____NO.
Would a J. W. living in 1913 have been disfellowshipped from the Watchtower if he believed and taught that 1914 was not going to be the "battle of the great day of God Almighty" or Armageddon, as the Society was then saying (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. II, The Time Is At Hand, 1908 ed., pp. 101, 172 and 245)? _____YES _____NO.
Did you know that the Watchtower once taught that 1874 was the "exact date" of the Lord’s return (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. II, The Time Is At Hand, 1908 ed., p. 170)? _____YES _____NO.
Could the 1874 "exact date" change to 1914? _____YES _____NO
Since the Watchtower’s doctrines and practices are continually changing, would you say that thousands of J. W. s in the past were not really "in the truth," as they confidently confessed, according to present-day Watchtower teachings? _____YES _____NO.
Have thousands of J. W. s died believing and teaching Watchtower "errors," according to present-day Watchtower teachings? _____YES _____NO.
Are you sure the same won’t happen to you? _____YES _____NO.
Do you agree with the founder and first president of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Charles Taze Russell) who said that if one lays aside the Scripture Studies and goes to the Bible alone, "within two years he goes into darkness" (Watchtower, 9-15-10, p. 298)? _____YES _____NO.
"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world,’ even announcing a specific date .... Yet, nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? ... Missing from such
people were God’s truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them" (Awake, 10-8-68, p. 23). _____TRUE _____FALSE.
Why doesn’t the Watchtower use the preceding bit of information on themselves? _____THE WATCHTOWER DOES _____THE WATCHTOWER
HAS A DOUBLE STANDARD. In Acts 10:34-43, we read the Apostles Peter’s sermon that brought instant salvation to people who "received the word of God" (Acts 11:1). How much "accurate knowledge" did Cornelius and others have to take in to become Christians? _____MUCH _____NOT
VERY MUCH.
Did they have to submit to a 6 month book study, then join an organization before they were "saved" (Acts 11:14)? _____YES _____NO.
Are you going to try to forget about any Watchtower inconsistencies, deceptions, false prophecies, false claims, and heresies? _____YES _____NO.
If you were wrong, would you change? _____YES _____NO.
Mythbuster

marked
cyberjesus

mf31 like your questions
confliction

jamiebowers: I will be careful- It's very difficult though; I'm just so frustrated at how they have been so... brainwashed that they circumvent logic. Whenver I do come up with something they can't refute they either give an answer that they KNOW doesn't sound right, or they just skip it all together, just ignoring it.

Thanks for looking out for me. I really do need to keep my head together.

mentallyfree: "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world,’ even announcing a specific date .... Yet, nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? ... Missing from such
people were God’s truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them" (Awake, 10-8-68, p. 23)

Perfect; this is exactly the stuff that we need- an irrefutable form of conflicting logic, in print. I can work from there- I need something that I can firmly back and report as research STRAIGHT from the watchtower. Since they only listen to what the watchtower says, it seems I can only argue from that avenue. Doing this will help subdue apprehension for fear of "apostate influence" and "independent thinking". It's almost as if my parents were programmed to reply with these buzz-words lol- they specifically mention these phrases, repeatedly!
Black Sheep

Something I'm working on....
Cheers
Chris
Never try to tell a JW anything. There is a huge amount of information on the internet that you can show them. Don't tell them any of it and certainly don't show them any of it. They are trained not to listen. They are taught that Apostate websites are full of lies, you are trying to take them away from Jehovah and that you are influenced by Satan. So, what can you do???

Ask questions.

They are trained to teach, so ask questions. Ask in such a way that they feel obligated to answer. They are taught that they have knowledge that is neccessary to survive Armageddon, which is coming soon, and that it is their duty to share it. Use that to your advantage.

They are there to save you. You have a question. It is your question that is important because if they can't answer it with honesty and integrity, then they will never accomplish their God given mission.

Remember: You are not there to answer their questions. (They are not interested in your answers except to get you to make a mistake so that they can pounce on it.)

If you do have to show them something, try to make it something that they have in their own home. Even a dictionary or encyclopedia on their own bookshelf might be regarded with deep suspicion if they think you are an opposer so try to stick to WT literature that they have in their possession or computer and get them to read it to you and comment on it.

The primary doctrine is that the WT was selected by Jesus, in 1919, to be God's sole channel of communication to mankind in our day. As long as they believe that, the WT has full mind control. This is true even if they are studying, unbaptised, drifted or disfellowshipped. Everything the WT teaches is believed because of that doctrine. If the WT changed a doctrine tomorrow, they would believe the change, even if it is contradicted by the Bible or Jesus or Jehovah himself.

Your questions should be constructed to steer them towards stating their belief in that doctrine, but try not to put words in their mouths.

Some sample questions:

How do you know the WT is better than the Catholics/Evangelicals/Muslems/Mormons/whatever?
How do you know Jesus selected them?
When did Jesus select them?
Why did Jesus select them?
Can you show me an article that says that, please?
All the time asking, "How do you know ...?" type questions to steer them where you want them to go.

If they make a claim about the WT that you know is untrue demand that they prove it, or get them to read, to you, a WT article that contradicts them. NOTE: Do not read it to them!!!!!

Don't get sidetracked.

Red herrings are their favorite trick. They are trained to distract you from your subject and are experts at it.

Rule #1: Don't change the subject.
Rule #2: Don't let them change the subject.

Every time you read a disaster story about a conversation with a JW, the JW has had control of the subjects.

The tricks they use are mostly diversion tactics. They will:

Talk volumes about a related subject without discussing your question.
Ask a question about another subject.
Attack another church or their doctrine.
Attack your character.
Attack your motives.

JWs never stay with a subject that they are uncomfortable with, so, if one tries to change the subject, that is a very good indication that you should stay on that subject. Try to make them feel guilty for attempting to use these tactics on you. Use parallels to religions that they consider to be false if you can. If they have previously denegrated a religion for using the tactics they are using on you, point it out and pour on the guilt for it. Act offended that they should do such a thing to you. Guilt, guilt, guilt.

If a conversation reaches a stalemate, or one of you needs to go away to do some research, finish the conversation and walk away. Do not start another subject. Do not let them start another subject. They will always want to start another subject because they want to end the conversation feeling as though they have had a 'win' and they can do that if they can pick a subject that they are good at and you are not. It is time to go. Now. You can talk about sport or politics or itchy underclothing, but do not discuss another religious subject.

Once they have confirmed that they believe their primary doctrine, it is time to ask them how they know that they were selected in the year 1919 .... and that is another subject. It is an easy subject, but once again, you must know how to control the subject and not get sidetracked. They know how to take an easy subject and make it sound really complicated, so you must learn control.

Control, control, control.
Witness My Fury

Sometimes it is the process rather than the method. Not that that makes any initial sense, so I'll try and explain.
They need to be in a mental place to THINK, BEFORE they will process the questions posed in the way that will be useful. You can ask the most brilliant questions but if they are not ready mentally to process them then they are wasted, however you have to start somewhere.
Personally here's the thought I had on my own whilst still a believer (but fed up with it through bad experiences)
How does prayer work? It takes 8 minutes for the light from the Sun to reach us travelling at 300,000 Kilometers per second. Prayer travels FASTER than light by several magnitudes... If it does indeed do so......HOW??
Or is Heaven in our immediate vicinity?
It is not answerable. But it serves the purpose which to make you THINK.
That is the process, make them think about what it is that they actually believe and accept (often unchallenged). Quote this method often.. (1 John 4:1) "Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." Also the Beroeans: (Acts 17:10,11) "Carefully examining the Scriptures... as to whether these things were so."
My 2p.
Cheers
steve2

It's time you awoke from sleep. Look you're on the way to a hiding from hell if you are trying to reach your parents through reasoning. They'll smell a rat a mile off and you'll beas good as dead. Ditch the need to win arguments with them. Why should you need to validate your own doubts through them. Cut the damn apron strongs.
bohm

slow down!
"what archeological evidence point towards 607bc" GODDIDITWHATSYOURMOTIVESWETRUSTTHEFDS
"why are all the books on evolution full of baloney" GODDIDITWHATSYOURMOTIVESWETRUSTTHEFDS
"how come rutherford and russel made several false predictions" GODDIDITWHATSYOURMOTIVESWETRUSTTHEFDS
"noahs ark wouldnt have worked" GODDIDITWHATSYOURMOTIVESWETRUSTTHEFDS
"shunning is not scriptural" GODDIDITWHATSYOURMOTIVESWETRUSTTHEFDS
its very easy to answer someone when you dont think. i would recommend you to read up on cult psychology; randy has a very good article that might give you a few ideas
http://www.freeminds.org/psychology/cults/opening-the-closed-mind.html

Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance

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