God is not a good Samaritan

by peacedog 79 Replies latest jw friends

AGuest

what is to stop all the suffering from simply happening all over again?
Thus, the world... AFTER the Flood... eh, dear Tec? The greatest of love and peace to you!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Pistoff

I don't think it is possible to end suffering, or death; I think sickness and poverty can be minimized by a more just society.
My statements about God's failings are aimed at the frame of the the discussion; religious folk want to say that we are here by God's grace and by his creative powers. When the argument fractures on why god allows good people to be tormented, suffer and die, the rationalizations come out, light as a feather and supported by nothing.
I neither believe in God nor affirm that there is none; but it seems obvious to me that he does not direct anything. If he is in charge, he should be fired.
The rationalizations are made to try to fit God, death and suffering into one unified system. It doesn't work but it is reminiscent of how the ancients looked at things; when bad things happen in a world thought to be controlled by God, well, then, there must be reasons. 70,000 die of pestilence? They must have been wicked.
(Jesus, a revolutionary and visionary sage, is killed in his prime by an occupying power? It must have been God's plan; that is easier to take that the cruel random nature of the world. And he will be back, he was resurrected, he will rescue us. One can see how despair and grief played a part).
The assumption of a God that cares about us is the central fault in the frame of the discussion; there is no proof.
We, me included, love life, our children, this beautiful planet. But nature is random and cruel; it is hard to accept that. The temptation is there to make sense of it, to see it as part of some grand scheme, but the argument does not hold water, and there is NO evidence for it, only sentimental assertions.
Some faiths understand the nature of myth, maybe reform judaism and some of the liberal christian traditions, and see faith and God's will as a fragile, not strong, bulwark against the cruelty of nature and animalistic human systems; the work of building ethical and moral systems, including governments, is the goal of many in those faiths.
This makes more sense to me that trying to explain the senseless things that happen in life by saying God is waiting, God can't act yet, God wants you to do it.
How about we just say, WE ARE ALONE, and if it is to happen, WE must make it happen and not wait for God, that it is our job to build ethical and just systems?
Who are the representatives of God/Jesus? I don't know but all modern day christians are only derivative of and delivered by the catholic church; whether you want to admit it or not, your faith can only be measured by how it either compares or differs from the original church. They are mature, old, established, and show the very extreme results of centuries of power games that get played to stay powerful, as they believe it is important to do so. The church, for good or bad, decided what the gospel was, liturgy, doctrine. Without the brutal power games in the middle ages, no modern day christianity.
They do an incredible amount of charitable works, which some would say is the purpose of Jesus' gospel; is the good they do undone by the terrible effects of unlimited power? That could be argued to the end of time.
So you may say, I am not a part of the catholic church, or lutheran, but your belief was nurtured along and can exist only because the catholic church did it first and established what is the modern take on Jesus, right or wrong.
P
AGuest

it seems obvious to me that he does not direct anything. If he is in charge, he should be fired.
This is an incorrect and inaccurate assumption, dear PO'd (may you have peace!)... and religious people (well, at the so-called "christians") should know better than to teach it. Those who belong to the Body of Christ don't. That's because God is NOT directing anything... either as to the world... or as to His sheep... and they KNOW this.
The world... is directed by its ruler, Satan. Thus, what you see... is what you get. God's sheep... are directed by God's Son, Christ, the One to whom God turned over His power and rulership TO. And, per that One... what you do NOT see... is what you get.
And since most people walk by sight... well, you can probably guess who's "directing" them.
See? I truly hope so and, again, I bid you peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
booby

so AGuest = are you saying god is the wrong one to blame, it should be his son because he is sposed to be doin it and ain't.
Pistoff

And so one more rationalization is that Satan, not God, is directing the world that God created. Only one more weak argument against those who ask, if God is all powerful, and his work is good and perfect, why is the world not good and perfect.
This violates the premise of most believer's most sacred tenet; that God is in charge. The Satan argument creates a situation where God, in charge, is not in charge, but waiting, testing his followers.
I am all for the search for the divine in human ethics and morals, but this high wire act of arguments about why God is not doing a better job, why we don't see his hand, we have to wait, no Satan is in charge, they leave me disappointed.
It is harder than that, the truth is tough; WE must change it. We are responsible, not Satan, if our societies are unjust. The tough reality is that evil is part of human nature, not something that an invisible demon is orchestrating.
We can't fix what we have until we understand what it is; it is human nature that we fight, and better human nature can help it.
Peace back to you Aguest.
tec

Thus, the world... AFTER the Flood... eh, dear Tec?
Yes.
I think it applies to any other 'fix' that people think God should do. So again I ask, if God just ended suffering and set things right -however you think He could do that- then what is to stop all the suffering from simply happening all over again?
Tammy
The Finger

What is this talking about, God was good to us underserving lowlifes, He gave his Son. Want to give yours?
AGuest

are you saying god is the wrong one to blame
I absolutely am saying that, dear booby (again, peace to you!)
it should be his son because he is sposed to be doin it and ain't.
No, dear one, I am not saying that at all! His Son is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing, what he said he would do and be doing... and what the Most Holy One of Israel said he would do... and be doing: subduing... in the midst of his enemies. As one of those being so subdued, I can honestly attest to the truth... and fulfillment... of that work.
And so one more rationalization is that Satan, not God, is directing the world that God created.
No, serious, dear PO'd (again, peace to you!)... I'm serious. I'm rationalizing nothing. It is true, albeit hard to believe.
Only one more weak argument against those who ask, if God is all powerful, and his work is good and perfect, why is the world not good and perfect.
Well, sure, I am sure that those who don't WANT to believe it will consider it a weak argument. Just as those who know it to be true would consider blaming God for our shortcomings a weak argument, as well. The truth is that it's actually easier to say there isn't a God (because you can't see Him - with your eyes of flesh)... than to exercise faith in Him (although you can't see Him with your eyes of flesh... because He is a spirit... which is what faith IS). We get that...
This violates the premise of most believer's most sacred tenet; that God is in charge.
And you say that to say... what? That because MOST "believers" believe God is in charge... He IS in charge? Well, I must ask you, then, to note that they're not really believers, regardless of what they claim. Not really. Because if they were, they would KNOW... and so would tell YOU... that the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, has appointed His SON over all of His belongings... and so THAT One is "in charge". But, for now, only of such belongings...
The Satan argument creates a situation where God, in charge, is not in charge, but waiting, testing his followers.
I disagree. The truth regarding Satan is that he is in charge of THIS world... which has been the case for some time, now. The Most Holy One of Israel has not withheld that truth from earthling man. And the truth... regarding the Most Holy One of Israel... is that He (1) has given over His authority to His Son, which Son set out just what that meant... for those who belong to him... and for the world... including that he would be with those who belong to him... which he is... and (2) is not testing any one of us at all. It is Satan who challenged... and attempts to exploit the desires of each of us, dear PO'd. Not the Most Holy One of Israel.
It is Satan who has said, of each and every one of us, that we would ONLY love and serve God IF... He made our lives perfect. IF He put a hedge around us, protected us... and greatly prospered us. HE is the one who said... of me... AND you... that we are nothing but weak, puny, selfish, self-serving, crying, whining, babies... that can't do a damn thing for themselves and will ONLY love God... IF... God "did" for us. BUT... that if God were to leave us on our OWN... to REMOVE that hedge and let us fend for ourselves... we would not only despise Him but we would... every one of us... curse the Most Holy One of Israel... to His very face. You only heard of that challenge made as to the man, Job. I assure you... it was made of you, too. You just didn't HEAR it... because you wish to do so with your ears... of flesh. Rather than your ears... of spirit... of the man you are... ON THE INSIDE.
And, sad to say, for the most part... Satan is being proved right.
Praise JAH, however, that he is not being proved TOTALLY right. Praise JAH that not all of us will fulfill his accusation against earthling man. SOME of us will show the accuser of our brothers to be the base liar that he TRULY is. I... will give my life to do so. Because, why I don't know if he's truthful about YOU... he is certainly LYING about me... and THAT's what TRUE integrity is all about.
As for the rest... well, to their own master, whom Satan is proving to be, unfortunately... they will stand... or fall.
I am all for the search for the divine in human ethics and morals, but this high wire act of arguments about why God is not doing a better job, why we don't see his hand, we have to wait, no Satan is in charge, they leave me disappointed.
Yes, I understand. And some of them are disappointing... because they are not completely accurate. They often leave voids in understanding or lead to even more questions that can only be answered with irrational... ummm... rationalizations. They are very good attempts at being loyal TO God, however, so I cannot disparage them.
It is harder than that, the truth is tough; WE must change it. We are responsible, not Satan, if our societies are unjust. The tough reality is that evil is part of human nature, not something that an invisible demon is orchestrating.
You are partly correct, dear one. Evil IS a part of human nature. It is a PRIMARY part of our nature. That invisible demon is not necessarily 'orchestrating' things, however; rather, he is simply EXPLOITING that nature... what's IN US... and then letting the "pieces" fall where they may. The results/consequences be what they will be. And, as a species... a good many of us LET him. And we can see where that's gotten us, can't we?
Dear one, it is not about what Satan brings to us and what we do about that. It's about that evil nature that is IN us... and we can do about that. We can use it to glorify God... and thus, ourselves... or to glorify Satan, perhaps to the detriment of our fellow man (which the track record is showing is the case).
We can't fix what we have until we understand what it is
Indeed. But most don't understand... or don't WANT to understand... and a great many others know that. And so they teach erroneous things like, for instance, that God is in charge but simply won't do anything. The Most Holy One of Israel has a Plan... that Plan is moving right along... and the fact that it doesn't meet with our individual timeline doesn't mean it's ineffective. We THINK we know... because we THINK we see. We DON'T see, however, and, therefore, we really don't know.
it is human nature that we fight
Yes, and allow to be used... and exploited... by ourselves... and by others... including very malintentioned spirit beings...
, and better human nature can help it.
Yes, to some degree, and we sometimes see that in our world, too! However, when that doesn't work (and for most, it doesn't)... there is the "nature"... of Christ. A spirit being.
Peace back to you Aguest.
Which I completely accept, and wish upon you... and your entire household, dear PO'd.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the One who completely, fully, and perfectly personifies the "nature" of God, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... which "nature"... is love...
SA
cofty

The more I read apologies for god the more it reinforces my decision to abandon my faith.
All attempts to reconcile god and suffering are ultimately vacuous.
The world looks exactly as it we would expect it to look if there was no god.
I grieve for suffering but I no longer experience the pointless angst of wondering "why?"
Shit happens!
(very good OP by the way)
peacedog

Thanks for all the comments.
Cofty, good comments:
"All attempts to reconcile god and suffering are ultimately vacuous. The world looks exactly as it we would expect it to look if there was no god."
Profound and true, and summarizes my position.
Imo, the existence of a loving omnipotent God is just inconsistent/incompatible with human suffering.

God is not a good Samaritan

Share this