Greetings, dear Debator... and may you have peace!
At the outset, I'd like to ask you an honest and forthright question, if I may: are you Reniaa? If so, then we most probably don't need to continue this discussion after this, but simply agree to disagree. You see things the way the WTBTS has taught you to see them... and I see them the way Christ, the Holy Spirit has taught me to see them. Given that, we most probably will never see things the same and, so, why expend the time and energy? If you not Reniaa, then, by all means, let's continue:
You yourself from your own opinion qualify what is prayer, beseeching etc despite the Bibles use of the word pray or thanks to God.
That's not true at all. I use my Lord's definitions. He directed that we are to go into our private rooms and pray in secret. He TOLD met his... before he showed it to me. Prior to that, I had no problem with it, either? But then he said to me... as he says to all: "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord'... but do not do the things I say?" When I asked "What things, Lord?"... he showed me where I was in error... in quite a lot of things. Including WHERE I pray and in front of whom... and for what.
Now, I know that YOU don't believe he told me these things (because you haven't been told the TRUTH about Him, the Holy Spirit... or about holy spirit... or about the anointing... because those you follow don't KNOW the truth... because they don't KNOW the Truth (John 14:6)... but you can be assured I have not lied to you. To PROVE what he shared with ME... I showed YOU where it is "written" (because you need to SEE it, in writing, with your owns eyes... you, who walk by SIGHT and not by FAITH). And... it says it right there... in black and white: "YOU, when YOU pray... go into your private room and, AFTER SHUTTING THE DOOR..." which is what these you refer to DID.
YOU, though... and those YOU follow... say, "He did not mean that at all. Yes, it says that he SAID that... but he didn't MEAN that." So, when you presented the verses you did... I asked. I mean, he has NEVER lied to me before so, of course, I ask "What's up with these verses, Lord? How am I to explain them?" And I explained them to you... exactly as he explained them to me: these WERE in private, just as he directed... and the door was shut... and they were NOT "praying" to God... as your elders pretend to be doing... but, rather, beseeching the Most Holy One of Israel... on their own behalves... and each others', indivudually... to guide and help them, to give them His holy spirit (which your leaders NEVER ask for)... and, although doing so as a group, did NOT "overstep" his "commandment"... which was referencing general, public prayer... "in the synagogues."
That you do want to accept this TRUTH is understandable. Because it would undermine YOUR faith... in those you follow and what they teach. I totally get that. Been there, done that. I ask you: how do YOUR leaders "get" THEIR information and understanding? Who do THEY ask... and by what means? WHO... or WHAT... teaches THEM?
Ironically also by your opinion witnesses have made no sin our places would be consider private places of worship for us specifically, only the interested being there so we are not Publically making a display of our pray...
You are in error. While you may have used to been able to say that about the Book Study, you CANNOT say that about any of the other meetings. Even so, the PUBLIC Talk is NOT a private meeting, is NOT considered a private meeting. The very fact that you HAVE a "Public" talk is how the WTBTS maintains it's GOVERNMENT-granted 501(c)(3)... NON-TAXABLE... status. Its meetings MUST be open to the public. Otherwise... it is NOT tax-exempt. It IS exempt, however... because it HAS such status... because it HAS... "public" meetings. True, they try to tell YOU that the meetings are "private"... while they tell others and the government that they are NOT private. They get around the government's requirement... by calling at lease one meeting.. the "Public" Talk. If the government had ANY inkling that the other meetings were NOT public... they would LOSE their tax-exempt status.
So, the question probably SHOULD have been: why do your leaders, IF they belong to Christ... and IF they are so upright and righteous... and IF they are "subjecting" themselves to the "superior authorities"... why are they not FULLY honest in THIS thing? For that matter, why would they join the United Nations... while publishing all sorts of anti-UN propoganda over the years?
Dear one... you are being misled. And you are HERE... because something IN you already knows that. I know it's a hard thing to look at, but it is the truth.
Oh, and certainly you know that it is NOT only the "interested" who attend such meeting: there are MANY there who are not interested, but simply accompanying a family member or other [loved] one. Or invited to see IF they are "interested."
and in fact if you had been to a kingdom hall all prayers are specific to that day and besseching of Jehovah our father.
I have been to a kingdom hall, dear one. More than 2,000 times. That is how I know how they pray... and what they pray for...
And you have to qualify Jesus's (as eldererelle pointed out accurately) praying for a crowd as blessing to stop your words being a condemnation of Jesus. Despite the meaning of the words "giving thanks" being prayer.
You are in error, dear Debator. When I thank you... I am not praying TO you. I am thanking you. In the case you referred to, my Lord used the POWER... of God's holy spirit... which power he THANKED God for giving him... to increase the bread and fish. That is why the GREEK says, "HE 'blessed' the bread." Contrary to the WTBTS version that, "he said a blessing," which is misleading. Even so, it is why many folks say, "Let us give THANKS"... versus "Let us PRAY." Because they are NOT the same thing. As I stated, however, thanks... is ALWAYS appropriate. It's just plain good manners!
Other Christian faiths do make a point of ritualised prayer which is on show with special clothes and chants but that is not witnesses.
Again, you've been misled. While it is true that we should not use ritualized prayer (i.e., "Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name thy kingdom come thy will be done..." etc.), my Lord DID set forth WHAT we are to pray FOR:
First... and FOREMOST... before we EVER ask anything for ourselves (indeed, should we ever ask anything for ourselves? Does not the Most Holy One of Israel know what we are needing even before we ask? And, yet, if we MUST ask... before we DO so there are things that are MUCH more important):
We should ask that God's name is sanctified and removed of reproach. Do we have to SAY "hallowed be thy name?" No. But, should ask for that to occur? Absolutely. So, HOW one says it is not as important as THAT one asks it.
Next... for HIS kingdom to come/be established... so that HIS will is done... ON THE EARTH (just as it is in the "heavens"). But the people YOU follow entirely MISS how that kingdom IS "established"... because they know what that kingdom IS. They claim it's a "goverment", etc. It is not. It is NEW Jerusalem... the City Kingdom of God... in which "righteousness is to dwell." You are ASKING... that that City... "come down out of heaven". And in order for THAT to occur... you are asking for its completion... for the BUILDING of that City... which is the TEMPLE OF GOD... to be completed. And for THAT to occur... you are asking that the "gathering of the chosen ones"... occur. Because it is those chosen ones... who make UP that City/Temple. (1 Corinthians 3:16; Ephesians 2:19-21; Revelation 3:12).
Which "gathering" you... and those you follow... DENY as occurring... since 1935 (yet, your annual numbers show that "gathering" as increasing - and please, let's not do the "new light re the generations" thing... because the TRUTH does not change. Christ is the SAME... yesterday... today... and tomorrow!) and deny access to... by disobeying the COMMANDMENTS at John 6:48-56, 13:14-16, and Luke 22:19, 20... and by teaching one another... and others... to disobey them as well. As a result, you "shut UP the kingdom of the heavens before men... because YOU YOURSELVES do not in, neither do you allow those on THEIR way to go in." Matthew 23:13 Indeed, you... and those you follow, your "LEADERS"... "traverse sea and dry land to make ONE proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves." Because now, these continue your misleadings!
The basic meaning of the word pray is to communicate with God there for any words directed to him are pray.
You are in error. If I, for example, said to you: "Pray, tell me, dear Debator, why is it that you follow men... versus following the Lamb?" would I be saying to you, "Pray to God, dear Debator?" What if I said, "I pray that you don't fall off a cliff..." Am I actually praying to God... or just wishing you don't fall off the cliff? I can pray to God, dear one...regarding the subjects that Christ directed... or I can give Him thanks. Thanks... does not require prayer. I can say, "Thank you, Father!"... without having to go all into a long drawn-out diatribe.
Jesus specifically "gave thanks" for the loaves to his father this is recognisably a pray of thanksgiving. Something the Jews and Christians knew to be an apsect or prayer that they did.
Really. Well, let's take a look at what you offer as proof. Using the NWT, of course...
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.
Oh, look - prayer... AND petition... WITH thanksgiving. Meaning, we can have prayer... WITHOUT petition... and WITHOUT thanksgiving. Yes?
We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
Oh, good, another one! You read this as "We always THANK God... WHEN WE PRAY for you." But that is not how the Spirit speaks it to ME. HE reads it: "WE always thank God... when WE pray for YOU." Why? Because, Paul et al., were GRATEFUL for these that the holy spirit had "gathered" into the Body. Also, there were some who didn't truly appreciate new ones and so DIDN'T thank God for calling them when they prayed. Get it? It really is very elementary, dear Debator...
You simply redefine what you consider to be pray to your own opinion ignoring the context of it in bible usage.
You look to men to define the Bible and open up the scriptures. I look to Christ. I ask you: who SHOULD we be looking to? Who SHOULD be opening them up to us? Who SHOULD be teaching us... and HOW? What does THE BIBLE say?
Elderelle was spot on when she sees that Jesus in the verse you use is condemning doing pray for the sake of displaying yourself in front of men.
S/he was... I do not disagree. But that was only part of what he was addressing. I addressed it all - you, only a part and even then not accurately...
It is Jesus's death and shed blood that saves us not our partaking of the remembrance meal.
Funny... HE said it was eating his flesh and drinking his blood. HE said, "UNLESS you eat the flesh of the son of man AND drink his blood... you have NO LIFE in yourselves." HE said, "KEEP doing this in remembrance of me." HE said, "THIS MEANS my body..." and "THIS MEANS my blood..." HE said. But you have NO regard for what HE said; rather, your regard is only for what those whom you follow have to say... those who say to YOU, "Do NOT eat the bread or drink the wine because YOU are not WORTHY. It is not FOR you... but for those whom WE accept as "worthy." Those who have "shut up the kingdom of the heavens before YOU," because although HE... CHRIST... said "That ANYONE may eat of it..." and "If ANYONE eats of it..."
But they say not you. And, sadly... you believe them. To your own eternal detriment... and theirs. Because I say to you... that UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of Man... and drink his blood... YOU, dear Debator... have NO life in you. And YOU... will NOT live forever... as you have been lyingly misled to believe you will. How, I ask you? Or do you ascribe to yet another of their false teachings... that you... have life "within" yourself? I ask you: where did YOU get such life... if Christ said you have NO life within yourself unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood? How is that YOU... Debator... can have something in YOU... that NO OTHER HUMAN can have?
Jesus himself says "Do this in remembrance of me" not "do this or else you will die!"
Does it matter that he did not say "do this or else"? He said... DO THIS. As a people who pride themselves on doing "just do"... you folks are seriously missing the mark... and purpose... here!
but people tie it falsely with John 6 which is about our not being able to live unless we are partake of his actual death and sacrifice for us.
Ahh, so now it's okay for YOU to take his words out of context, is it? So, tell me: how does one "partake" of his actual death and sacrifice? Literally. How does one do that? Now, for ME, I understood what he meant: you must eat from the Tree [of Life]... which Tree he is (John 15:1; John 14:6)... and which eating is done by partaking of the "manna from heaven", which bread he is (John 6:48)... and drink from the Rock-Mass that he is (1 Corinthians 10:4)... which manna... and water... by the way, was consumed by EVERYONE who left Egypt... Israel AND the "vast mixed company" (1 Corinthans 10:2-4; Numbers 11:4-6)... indeed, they ALL partook of the Passover Lamb... because there was only ONE law between them (Exodus 12:48, 49). Only those who did not plan to "join" themselves to Israel (i.e., foreigners who would not join by becoming circumcised, a settler who was only temporarily residing among them and so was not planning to join up with them, or a hired laborer - who was only among them for employment purposes and would return to his own household/beliefs/god...), could not partake.
BUT... everyone else... ATE THE PASSOVER LAMB. Only those who were uncircumcised... and thus NOT "joined" to Israel... could not and did not.
what we have is event A/ Jesus prediction in john 6
And what was that "prediction"? That UNLESS you ate his flesh and drank his blood... you would have NO life in yourself. That if you DID... you would live forever, indeed, HE would resurrect you on the last day. Let me ask you: who is to resurrect those HE doesn't resurrect... and to WHAT? He resurrects to life. What other resurrection is there? Pray... tell me, if you know...
and event /B "lords evening meal" and both these are refering to Event /C Jesus actual death and sacrifice, not to each other.
Can you show me where that is "written"? And please note, that if your "source" is a Watchtower publication (other than the NWT), I will have to reject it. While you're looking that up, though, I must ask... why, then, did they continue the custom? Which we know they did because Paul addressed it...
3/ As for the old covenant! for the apostles and anointed the old covenant has been ended with but for those that are part of it still it remains
How can that be... if Christ FULFILLED it? Who do YOU follow... Christ... or Moses? Nevermind - I already know. And now I KNOW why you don't get any of this: because, sadly, dear one... YOU... are still under Law.
Jesus shows this by his words for john the baptist who didn't live to be part of the new covenant and heavenly promise. I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Interesting. And how is it, then, that Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, and Jacob are in that HEAVENLY kingdom?
"But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens..." Matthew 8:11
" By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was going. By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God." Hebrews 11:8-10
s? Of him it states:
"By faith Abel... E´noch... Noah... Abraham... Sarah... all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. For those who say such things give evidence that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own.And yet, if they had indeed kept remembering that [place] from which they had gone forth, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven. Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them." Hebrews 11:4-16
Wait, I know... you're going to say, "It 'belong' to heaven, but is not heavenly." Dear one, the word 'belongs,' "belongs to" or "belonging to" do NOT appear in the original Greek. It was added by those you follow to support their false doctine of TWO hopes... even though Paul EXPLICITLY writes that there is only ONE hope (Ephesians 4:4).
But let's not stop there: what of Mose
"By faith Moses, when grown up, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Phar´aoh, choosing to be ill-treated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin,because he esteemed the reproach of the Christ as riches greater than the treasures of Egypt; for he looked intently toward the payment of the reward." Hewbrews 11:24-26.
Now, how in the WORLD did Moses even know OF the Christ, so as to "esteem" his (Christ's) reproach (which "reproach" Moses took on) as GREATER than the treasures of Egypt... if HE didn't know about the New Covenant... nor was a party to it?? Be careful, here, dear Debator. Because you answer you MIGHT want to take a look at Deuteronomy 18:15, 18. Because one of the TRUTHS that you... and those you follow... is that ALL of these not only KNEW about the New Covenant... but ARE in it... and WERE in it... before my Lord arrived in the flesh. THIS is the "covenant" that even JOSEPH knew of... and followed... LONG before a rebellious and ungrateful Israel was given the Law Covenant. The LAW Covenant was one that the Most Holy One of Israel had to write... on stone tablets. In order for the people to SEE it... so as to FOLLOW it. Much like you, those you follow... and "the Bible."
The NEW Covenant, however, is NOT written on stone tablets... or on paper in delible ink. It is written... ON HEARTS. And it was written on the hearts of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Job and Moses... and a WHOLE lot of other folks... long before it was written on stone tablets. And on the hearts of folks like Joshua, Deborah, Samson, David... and whole lot of other folks... since then. The only covenant that was NOT in existence... was the "covenant for a kingdom"... the covenant that granted CO-rulership with Christ... IN that kingdom.
The reason the "New" Covenant is called "new"... is for the sake of Israel. It is NOT "new" for non-Israelites... because it is the ONLY covenant that the Most Holy One of Israel has made with such ones. And neither Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah, or Isaac were "Israelites". The Old Covenant was for those who stood at the base of Mount Sinai and ENTERED such covenant... for themselves and THEIR children. It was a covenant mediated by Moses that said, "I am your God; you are my people - IF you keep these commandments." The Most Holy One of Israel did not make that agreement with ANY other people on earth.
NOW, however, by means of Christ... the Mediator of a BETTER Covenant... the Most Holy One of Israel can say of ALL of mankind... STARTING with Israel... can say, "I am your God; you are my people." BUT... only if that covenant... is RATIFIED. Previously, it was ratified with the blood of bulls. Now... it is ratified with the blood of a Lamb. Christ.
And unless you put some of that blood on the doorpost of YOUR "house"... the "dwelling" place of YOUR spirit... you will NOT be passed over... in the judgment.
I haven't got time to go into a whole michael debate but I think you know it as well as I do.
No, please, seriously. You don't have to go too "deep." Just explain to me how an angel can be Christ, the Son of God, when God is recorded to say, "Of which angel did I EVER say, 'You are my son?'" If my eternal life... in a paradise on earth... hinges on me knowing the TRUTH about these things, then I am asking YOU to fulfill your obligation... of love... to ME... and explain. So, if you need additional time... indeed, if you want to take it in parts... that is absolutely fine with me. Take as much time as you like, but I shouldn't think it would take more than, say, a day or so? I look forward to hearing from you on the matter, then. In the meantime I, again, bid you peace!
YOUR servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,
SA
