What's To Become of Adam and Eve?

by Cold Steel 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Cold Steel

I dunno...in the back of my mind, I seem to recall that back when I took some lessons with the Witnesses that they told me that Adam and Eve were going to be in pretty bad shape in the grand scheme of things. Is this right? Or does Jesus' atonement cover Adam and Eve? They quoted to me the scripture about John the Baptist where Jesus says, "He who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he." Now most Christians believe that it was Jesus who, having taken upon himself the sins of the world, had the least claim on the Kingdom of God. Thus, he was saying that he, himself, was greater than John. But the Witnesses say that the least of the anointed ones is greater than the greatest of the earthly class. Thus, whoever is least in the anointed class is greater than John the Baptist.
This struck me as a terribly ignorant interpetation and I'm wondering if any "new light" has filtered in that might cut John some slack. Do the Witnesses still believe that John is of the earthly class?
Also, what is the purpose of the earthly and heavenly classes of people? The former are resurrected bodily while the latter are resurrected as spirits, if I understand it correctly. Will people who live as resurrected bodies ever get to see family members that become part of the anointed class? How does this all work, and doesn't it sound a bit convoluted?
No offense to any believing members, but this sounds like some screwy theology. I still wonder if the earthly class of people are going to wear any clothing. I mean, Adam and Eve didn't until they were cast out, right? If mankind is just going to be thrown back into a vast Garden, will there be another tree that they'll be forbidden to eat?
Please help me out!
cameo-d

You ask too many varied questions for one post. But I will take on one subject here. Adam and Eve wore clothes made of plant material while they were in "the garden". It's in the big book. Reread it.
Before they were expelled from the garden, God himself killed their family pet and made them wear a masonic-like apron fashioned from the animal skin.
designs

1st question to ask: Were they real or folklore.
ProdigalSon

Adam and Eve were yin and yang, positive and negative, consciousness and energy, the two witnesses, the two serpents wrapped around the scepter in the medical symbol, etc. etc..... we MUST stop believing that fairy tales are real.
PS
cameo-d

Even fairy tales are often allegory and have deeper meaning than what's at the surface.
There is always a message to the story. The problem is just deciphering it accurately. Then again, it makes for very subjective literature which gives a wide path to conjecture. And interpretations reveal a lot about the persons themselves.
cameo-d

OK. I'll take one more question because it's interesting.
The earthly and the heavenly classes. The earthlies will be resurrected; the heavenlies resume their spirit form and go back to the heavens. Why does this happen, you ask.
The earthlies did not pass the test this time and they will reincarnate back here to suffer some more until they round off their rough edges and reach perfection.
Those of us who have managed to attain perfection (finally!) this time, will go back to our own planets. We each are sovereign and have a small planet that we share with a few others of like mind. It is blissful. Our "spirit" form is NOT invisible....it is just not flesh and blood and composition that rots.
Terry

The worst possible "crime" of Adam and Eve is tresspassing and theft.
Who would call for Capital Punishment for tresspassing or theft?
The punishment and the crime are incompatible with Justice.
The core principle in Justice is "Restoration."
That which is broken or injured is restored to what it was.
That is why Fines are imposed and community service required. It is repair and reparation.
God cannot be injured. God cannot die.
Humans can be injured. Humans can die.
The only restoration possible is for Adam and Eve to be restored.
The monstrosity of the Eden fable is the ancient conception of what a despotic overlord can legally do to his vassals.
The New Testament gives up on the Eden tale and pretends God is benevolent to the point He himself is the one injured: (Jesus has to =God and die) the restoration takes place with Resurrection opening the way for humanity itself.
Fan fiction reboot. Nice try.
Cold Steel

Well, basically I'm asking this in regard to what Witnesses believe.
As to whether Adam and Eve are real, that's another question altogether. Jesus appeared to think they were real and Christianity rests completely on the Fall of Man for its legitimacy. In short, no Adam and Eve and no Christ. "For in Adam all die; even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
The question, though, is we've got two classes in the Witness eschatology. The first is the anointed class who are all resurrected as spirits; the second is the regular class who get resurrected as physical beings and placed in a Garden to fulfill what Adam and Eve were meant to fulfill. Of all religious sects, only the JWs believe this.
John the Baptist: Jesus said, "He who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than he." Most Christians take this to mean that the one who has the least claim on the Kingdom of Heaven (Jesus) is greater than John. The Witnesses, however, believe that the least in the anointed class is greater than John the Baptist (who is in the earthly class). So let's say Kevin the manager of McDonalds is of the anointed class. Well, he's greater than John the Baptist because he's in the anointed class. Kevin takes the "elements" whenever they're offered in church and when he dies, he knows that he'll be resurrected as a spirit and be part of the great leadership Jehovah has chosen.
Bingo for Kevin, though he and others might want to rethink that eschatology down the line as it makes no sense.
But what about Adam and Eve (assuming they exist)? Do they get a chance at the physical resurrection or did they blow it at the time they ate the wrong fruit?
The Greek Orthodox and the Mormons both believe that Adam fell for a greater purpose. The only way to elevate the couple out of the stagnant pointless garden existence was to arrange for them to transgress and then provide them with a Redeemer. What would be accomplished? First, they would acquire a knowledge of good and evil, something they could not obtain without transgression -- for once they had this knowledge, they would invariably need to experience both good and evil to grow. But God could not give them this knowledge without their sinning, for it carried risks of eternal separation from God. With a Redeemer, however, it also carried the potential of great rewards, the greatest of which was becoming like God. (See John 3) Thus, getting humans out of the Garden was what the Lord's goal was (whether metaphorical or not). Staying in the Garden would provide no growth or potential -- only stagnation. Thus [Elohim] said, "Man has become as one of us, knowing good from evil." Jehovah's Witnesses believe that man is created spontaneously and, without his consent, is subjected to the rigors of earth life.
The path to becoming a being of light and power (like Jesus) can only come through the atonement. Years ago a Witness told me that Adam and Eve had their chance and now are condemned to eternal death. Is this a doctrine of the church or just an opinion?
designs

Cold-
Yes this is the doctrine of the Witnesses have about Adam and Eve, which is different from the earlier Bible Students who like many Universalist groups believe Adam and Eve with be resurrected quoting the verse 'Ransom for all'.
Cold Steel

It's strange because the Witnesses rely on their near perfect interpretations of the scriptures to fortify their own authority. Who else teaches that Christmas is a pagan holiday and that birthdays shouldn't be celebrated, they ask. Or who else teaches that it's wrong to join the military or fight wars? Thus, by process of elimination, they say, they must be the faithful and discreet slave mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24.
But they make incredible blunders in scriptural exegesis that negate those claims. One of the worst is that Jesus came to atone for the sins of Adam and Eve to restore mankind to the Garden of Eden! The idea that God's plan from the earliest time was to put man in a garden setting and then just leave him there to tend the animals and live off the land. They view Adam and Eve's sin as a horrible mistake, not as a liberating move that allows man to become joint-heirs with Christ. God forbid that I should end up in a garden for all eternity!
"Hey, Joe, we're having a get together next week and wondered if you could make it?"
"Thanks, but I'm soooooo sick of get togethers and vegetarian barbecues. This is the 5,867th party I've been invited to since Jehovah-God put us in this crummy garden 28 years ago! I'm about to go nuts!"
"I know, Joe, but...."
"Didn't John say that when we saw God, we would be like him (John 3)?"
"Yes, but...."
"But what? Weren't we supposed to be 'joint heirs' with Christ?"
"Yeah, Joe, but this all had reference to the anointed class, not us."
"Oh, yeah, the 'anointed class.' They get to go around the universe with the slightest thought and glow like million-watt bulbs...."
"Shhhhhh, Joe. They might hear you. You know they can be touchy about stuff like that. Bob Johnson ticked one of them off last month and found himself floating in space trying to suck up air in a vacuum for twenty-one days."
"Oh, right. John the Baptist is still ticked that he's having to organize social events at the civic center while Al Schroeder is yuking it up with Elijah and Daniel. What good does it do to be a great prophet if you're just going to be put in a garden on a vegetarian diet for the next, oh, I don't know, twenty billion years?"
"Well, you do have a point. Barbecued alfalfa sprouts only go so far...."
"I know. I'm beginning to wish I'd been annihilated with Adam, Eve, Hitler, Stalin and Helen Keller."
"Okay, okay, I get the sarcasm. Now do you want to go to the get together or not?"
"Sigh...oh, I guess. Do you want me to bring anything?"
"Yes, bring the cole slaw, would you?"
"Sure, that's easy. Cole slaw is a great side."
"Side? Joe, that's the main course!"
I'm sorry. I couldn't handle that kind of existence. People are dropping out of the JWs left and right. I can't find anything on YouTube that's pro-JWs. Everything's this ex-JW or that ex-JW. I wonder what their conversion rate is....

What's To Become of Adam and Eve?

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