A Terry inspired post - Whose interpretation do you follow?

by donny 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  PSacramento

  I always love reading Shelby's words :)

  They truly speak of how we must be ONE with our Lord and Saviour, BUT I know that for some, that is , deep down, a very scary thought.

  You see, that means that the things we do and believe have to come VIA US and not VIA someone else telling us what is right, what is the "word", WE must try to understand instead of a guide book telling US "it is this way", which means ALL responsibility is on US, no one to blame but US.

  For some that is a terrifying prospect, especially when we are so comfortable with being told by "others that know more".

  The bible CAN be a great first step to knowing God and Jesus, but itis NOT the final step.

  In reagrds to Paul's ( if it was Paul) words to Timothy about scripture, I think that when we try to take a General view of soemthing that was a specific answer to a specififc question, without knowing the details, we risk interpreting things wrongly. We don't know what scriptures Paul is referring to, but it was probably the OT ones since the NT wasn't around yet, or it coudl have been specific scripture Paul gave to Tim.

  We need to take what Paul says about something in the context of how Paul feels about EVERYTHING to do with that something.

  Shelby is quite right that Paul was often "misinterpreted", Peter makes mention of it too.

  The reason was that Paul wrote to different groups in different ways and addressed specifics in the middle of general points.

  It was his way and since he wrote to people that knew him and spent LOTS of tiem with him, THEY knew what he meant.

  We, who came after the fact must take his teachings as a WHOLE and not pick and chooses specififcs to justify human doctrine.
• 

  AGuest

  Dearest tec... thank you, for your patience and your very kinds words toward me, always. The greatest of love and peace to you!

  Dearest donny... the greatest of love and peace to you, as well! It is unfortunate (and I apologize on behalf of the Body of Christ) that you have run into such, ummmm... contradictions. There is a reason for that, which some who profess to have received holy spirit (or be led by the Holy Spirit) forget: not every "inspired expression" originates with God. This is VERY true and why we sometimes need to "test" the expression... against love and/or against what my Lord himself says. To use directly... through the Prophets... or perhaps as may have been recorded.

  With regard what you were told as to when Christians would be caught away (i.e., just prior to the Great Tribiulation or during/just after)... the TRUTH is that it really IS just after. My Lord himself explained this to me when he explained when the "separating" of the sheep and goats actually occurs (AFTER his chosen ones sit down on thrones with him, which occurs AFTER he returns, which occurs AFTER the tribulation). I wrote to the WTBTS about this truth and after taking some time to respond to me, they printed an chart from my letter in the October 15, 1995 WT. I offer this not to blow my own trumpet but because I want you to know that I did NOT get it from the Bible, but from my Lord, and it was only AFTER he told me that he showed me the following:

  “Immediately after the tribulationof those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And he will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity." Matthew 24:29-31

  This "gathering" includes those who belong to my Lord but have died and so are resurrected to spirit bodies (i.e., the "first" resurrection) AND those who have NOT died and so are instantly CHANGED to spirit bodies, AT THE SAME TIME... upon my Lord's arrival... as Paul (?) further explained in letters to the Body of Christ in Thessalonica and Corinth (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52). THIS truth shows that the WTBTS teaching that the resurrection has already begune, with some already resurrected to "heaven" (starting in 1914), and from then on others being resurrected as they die... is absolutely false. None of the Body precedes the others - because the ENTIRE nation is "born"... IN ONE DAY.

  Finally, dearest PSacto... the greatest of love and peace to you, and thank you also for your very kind words!

  May JAH bless you all... you and your entire households... to time indefinite!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  just n from bethel

  What's also interesting is that despite the different visions and voices that the personal revelationsists supposedly hear and see - is that in mainly Christian-based cultures, it all somehow relates to Christian doctrine that has been taught in the churches of western lands. However - you go around the world to Eastern lands and you find that people have the same exact type of revelation that's related to what the Buddhists/Hindus/Islam/[take your pick] - and they make the claim that their vision is the way to salvation.

  To make a claim that ANY of these revelations are not just some kind of subconscious emotional response... well that just reeks of arrogance and a stubborn failure to examine the facts. Then I like how others will make a claim that if you're not receiving your own similar (but likely different in dogma) revelation, and you're not being One with the Lord (even though no details are ever really given on how to do this other than: "it's very personal - just believe really really hard") - then you're just 'terrified of the prospect' of having your own revelation.

  I say that those that think they've had a revelation are just terrified of the prospect that it only was some kind of subconscious emotional chemical imbalance - and to even look into themselves as to what could have caused that and find out that is was psychological, and not really a vision from a invisible spirits -well, I say they're terrified of that prospect.

  But that will just be ignored - because most revelationsists need to believe it was real so bad - that if they were to find out it wasn't real they probably couldn't handle it mentally. So what if they go on with their beliefs that can't be proven- as long as they remain harmless, the worst thing they do is try to tell everyone else they're wrong. I say it doesn't matter if what Donny said is so obvious that revelationists have no real answer - he made clear most of the personal revelationists disagree on important details even if they all claim Christianity. If they're harmless enough, let's just let them be - for who knows what kind of breakdown they would have if they realized those voices they were hearing were the result of chemical imbalances. I know I don't want to be responsible for pushing anyone like that over the edge.
• 

  Essan

  TheMadJW said: "What a Bizarre statement. Without the Bible (or someone who READ it), you would know nothing about them. Has Jesus and the Nameless Ghost-God appeared to you and taught you?

  The Bible was written so that it would be relevant to people in all ages- and is only misunderstood because of false agendas and religious tradition."

  You are conflating two different things - a record and a guide

  The Bible records Jesus, but actually it's not the only record, there are many books from the same period as the Bible books which record Jesus and his teachings, yet aren't in the Bible. So yes, the Bible is a record about Jesus, but it's not the only one. Even if there were no such written records, an oral tradition could well have accurately preserved the basics of Jesus and his message. Or is God not capable of that?

  Now as for being a spiritual 'guide', well, the Bible itself said that this would be the spirit, not a book. Your rather sarcastic statement regarding "Jesus and the Nameless Ghost-God appeared to you and taught you" is actually contradictory to countless Scriptures which said that this would be exactly the case for true Christians.

  Your assumption that because it hasn't happened so far supposedly indicates that it won't or can't, is flawed. Perhaps JW's are not taught by the spirit because they have not accepted it as their teacher and have not accepted Jesus as their mediator - because they are too busy putting the Organization in their place and listening to "another good news" rather than the one Jesus taught.

  As much as you praise a book as a sure 'guide', it hasn't done you much good, seeing as JWs don't actually follow the Bible's words on this matter of spiritual guidance and countless other things. Perhaps, without the guidance of "Jesus and a nameless ghost-God", a record is just a record upon which men project their own fantastical interpretations.
• 

  Terry

  Open to interpretation=doesn't say anything.

  God has told a joke. Everybody pretends it is funny.

  Faith is laughing because it is SUPPOSED to be funny.
• 

  PSacramento

  But that will just be ignored - because most revelationsists need to believe it was real so bad - that if they were to find out it wasn't real they probably couldn't handle it mentally

  You base this on what?

  I could argue that for some, their life would be far "easier" if they had never had a "revelation".
• 

  just n from bethel

  I base this on observing revelationists around the world. They are emotionally attached to an idea that they claim just popped out of the sky one day. Nobody else gets to have even the same idea - or if they say they do, just as many say they received revelations telling them the opposite details.

  Many have admitted that, to try and help long-time aging JW family see the facts, well that could do more harm than good - to take away the idea that JWs are God's org. This has been discussed and most agree they would not want to see the pain and mental anguish it would cause on those aged JW family members who just couldn't handle it. So it's not a new concept.

  Why wouldn't the same concept apply to those who have received revelations? Showing them facts that they had been duped by their own mind is probably worse than showing a JW facts that they had been duped by an organization.

  Some may be able to handle it - but others probably couldn't.
• 

  PSacramento

  Revelations are personal, I am not sure you can or even should, try to "generalise" them.

  I know that some people tend to be very " I am right and you are wrong" in defense of their personal revelation, but that is usually a sign that they never really had one, al least not a "healthy one".

  There are many paths and ways to God, for a Christian it is Christ.

  You will see an univesal "truth" to most religions and personal revelations and that is a truth that leads people to WANT to be better people, not for a reward or some recompens, but because they it has been revealed that it is the "right thing to do" ( Goodness for goodness sake).

  When that truth is missing and it its place is hatred and arrogance and intolerance, conditional love, judgment, in short, all that we hold to be "dark", then perhaps this revelation was not from "the light".
• 

  just n from bethel

  I'm not sure what else to say. As I said just a bit ago, most of the rational points will be ignored. And that has happened in just a few quick posts. All my points about people being emotionally attached to incorrect ideas- the thoughts posted seemed pretty logical, considering how most here feel that's the case with many JWs. Nonetheless, those thoughts get ignored.

  Instead we get "there are many paths to God". Which if true, could very well mean that JWs are included in such paths. But even most personal revelationists here will go on and say "No - their way of worship is false and wrong. Not only have I used logic and facts to prove it, but I've had a personal revelation from the Lord to confirm it." The fallacy in such a statement should be obvious. Therefore the whole "revelations are personal" diatribe continues.

  But it will have to be without me, because I got tired of running around in illogical circles with JWs. So there is no way I'm going to waste even more time doing it with those who don't have even the slightest ability to give evidence of personal divine revelations. At least JWs had some semblance of reasonableness in their explanations.

  Nonetheless, I did want to acknowledge those who claimed personal revelations since they did make some attempt to explain them. It has helped me make my peace. I always had a lingering thought in the back of my mind that wondered if there was anything to these so called visions. I thought "am I missing something that God hasn't given me? - Does God give some people at random, different visions that conflict with one another - even those of the same supposed faith?" While I'm fine with those who have had them and believe they're real - I am at the same time glad I noted that such ones have never been able to give any rational explanation as to why others should think they might be real. I know none of them would ever want to entertain the thought that such revelations might have been subconsciously generated from their imagination, perhaps due to a challenging emotional state they found themselves in. But for those that continue to post nothing with any substance about why we should believe in visions - for that - I thank you.
• 

  The Finger

  AGuest.

  "What often amazes me is (1) even those who believe God/Christ don't speak or if they do you can't hear them... don't know what THE BIBLE says about such things, indeed won't even LOOK... but leave it to others to tell them and then blame God when others LIE to them about what it says, and (2) will risk EVERYTHING... will steal, commit adultery, lie, and worse... but will NOT eat the flesh of Christ or drink his blood! Because they have put SUCH a fear of doing so IN you... that you are "free" as to all things, apparently, but that."

  I found this statement was very interesting to me.