Pagan Origins

by brotherdan 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • garyneal
    garyneal
    brotherdan: As you continue in your studies, you're going to discover that only CULTS and FUNDAMENTALISTS profess to have "Certainty" on any number of topics.

    Well said, leavingwt. I take it you've had your share fundamentalist encounters. As you may or may not know, I use to go to a fundamentalist church and they rival the WT in their legalism and their alleged certainty.

    The bible is silent and condemns by it's silence.

    What complete and utter nonsense, debator. What else is the Bible silent on that people did and do now. A LOT!

    To brotherdan,

    But where do these things represent a danger to a Christian?

    I remember in my philosophy class where the professor said that symbols have no mean except the meanings we give them. This includes symbols like the cross and other religious symbols. I've always maintained that something with pagan origins should always be viewed in light of what they mean to us now. I understand the Watchtower use to ban windchimes because of their pagan origins. I had a Ouiga board that I never used for a spiritistic medium and I never threw it out. I did, eventually, remove the paper lining containing all the letters, numbers, and other symbols. The board itself made an excellent writing board.

  • inbetween
    inbetween

    For the sake of argument:

    According to my old JW understanding: anything that is still religious and the same time of pagan origin is wrong.

    example: Christmas, still a religiuos festival today (mostly ) and has clear pagan connections (birth of sun, god Mithra etc)

    this I can compare to the calf worship in Israel, dedicated to God, but origins in Egyptian religion.

    on the other hand, I never understood the birthday thing, yes it is connected to pagan origins, but its not religious anymore, its the same as wedding rings, or make-up etc...

    I asked once about the thanksgiving, since there is no pagan origin at all, and they came up with some strange explanation about connection to nationalism...didnt make sense...

  • elm
    elm

    Isnt Baptism also of Pagan origin. By the time of Jesus purifaction with water baptism was already an ancient pagen sacrement.

    Even according to the watchtower 1/1/93 p4 "Baptism preceded the Christian faith. It was used in Greece, Babylon,and ancient Egypt"

    If pagan holidays is displeasing to Jehovah, how can this be if the pagan practice of Baptism is not ?

    Jesus would already know of the origins of Baptism, and submitted to this pagan practice, because to Jesus it was showing Christians it was now a Baptism of repentance, a confession of sin, a symbol of forgiveness and of moral purity.

    Pagan origins had no impact in pleasing or displeasing God, it was how these pagan practices were used by Christians that would please or displease God.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    why bother? What matters it what something means to you and the value you give to it. Who cares where it came from?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    We all just do the best we can with what we have...the Bible.

    This is a notion that I would inherit as a result of my birth. That doesn't make it true.

    When I realised that I had been born into a high control cult, I floundered for a while and then decided that nothing I thought I knew about god could be trusted simply because I inherited those beliefs from the culture, and family, I had been born into.

    I was a spiritual babe. I knew nothing that could be trusted. Nothing... zero....zilch. I had to start from scratch. The notion that the Bible was the Word of God was passed down from my parents. I could just as easily been born to a Muslem and be conspiring to blow myself up in a marketplace.

    I started reading the Bible from this new pespective, using nothing but my knowledge of grammar and critical analysis to guide me. I didn't come to the same conclusions about this collection of ancient writings as my parents did. That is their problem, not mine. They could have done the same before I was born.

    Cheers

    Chris

  • freydo
    freydo

    "The entire codex consists of 346½ folios, written in four columns. Of these, 199 belong to the Old Testament and 147½ belong to the New Testament, along with two other books, the Epistle of Barnabas and part of The Shepherd of Hermas. The books of the New Testament are arranged in this order: the four Gospels, the epistles of Paul, the Acts of the Apostles, the General Epistles, and the Book of Revelation. Of its prior history, little is known. It is speculated to have been written in Egypt and is sometimes associated with the 50 copies of the scriptures commissioned by Roman Emperor Constantine after his conversion to Christianity. A paleographical study at the British Museum in 1938 found that the text had undergone several corrections. The first corrections were done by several scribes before the manuscript left the scriptorium. In the sixth or seventh century many alterations were made........"
    Codex Sinaiticus
    http://www.bibliahebraica.com/the_texts/codex_sinaiticus.htm

    The Name that is Above Every Name
    By Mildred Garner

    What is the name that is above every name? “Jesus,” most anyone would answer. But did the angel of Yahweh tell Joseph, the husband of Mary the mother of our Savior, to call his name Jesus as the scriptures seem to teach? “And she shall bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus (lit. Savior - see center ref); for he shall save his people from their sins,” Matthew 1:21.

    The word Jesus begins with a “J.” There was not a J in any language until after the 16th century A.D. I have searched for the meaning of the Greek word Iesous (Jesus), for I am aware there is no J in the Greek language, but I have found none. This creates a problem for the thinkers.

    The name given to Joseph by the angel obviously has a meaning. “For he shall save his people.” The name was to mean save. The Greek word for save is “soter,” If, as some say, the Bible was first given to a Greek speaking people, then we should be calling our Savior a Greek word meaning save or savior; therefore, we would call him “Soter.”

    The Greek spelling for Jesus is not soter; it is Iesous. What does it mean? The only reference the Strong’s Concordance refers us to is in the Hebrew dictionary. It comes from #2424 in the Greek dictionary, but refers us to #3467 and #3068 in the Hebrew. These two words combined means Yah Saves, or Savior. The one thing we are sure of is the name the angel gave for the Savior was not Jesus, nor was it Soter. The book of Matthew was first written in Hebrew; therefore, the name of the Savior was a Hebrew word, Yasha (meaning save, or savior).

    Some insist on the name Yahshua, but does the word “shua” mean save? In 1 Chronicles 2:3, “. . . these three were born to him from the daughter of Shua, the Canaanite.” Shua comes from #1340 and means “daughter of wealth.” It is also a name for a Canaanite woman in First Chronicles 7:32, and does not mean save. Shua seems to be a Canaanite word used by the Hebrews when they adopted the language of the Canaanites.

    Number 7769 – shuwa (shoo-ah), in the Strong’s Hebrew dictionary, came from #7768; to be free; but used only causative, and reflexive to halloo (for help, i.e. freedom from trouble). Number 7770, shuwa is the same as #7769. Shua is a Canaanite woman and is a feminine word. In Genesis 25:2, Abraham married the daughter of a Canaanite and she bore their son, Shuah; from #7744, meaning dell, to sink.

    Is our Savior a woman? Is he a Canaanite? Does he need to holler (halloo) for help? It is evident that shua does not mean savior in Hebrew. Shua and shuah are both Canaanite words and do not come from the Hebrew language.

    In order to find the true name of our Savior we should look up these three Hebrew words: save, savior, and salvation.

    Save in Deuteronomy 20:4, “For Yahweh your God is he who is going before you, to fight for you with your enemies to save you.” The word here for save is #3467 Yasha. “The Angel of the Lord said, Call his name Save (or Savior) because he will save his people.”

    Notice #3468, # 3469, and #3470 are all from #3467, Yasha (yaw-sha). You will find that Savior in Isaiah 43:3 (“For I am Yahweh, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior . . . ,”) and verse 11, (“I, even I, am Yahweh and there is no Savior besides me.”) and Hosea 13:4 (“Yet I am Yahweh, your God, from the land of Egypt; and you shall know no other gods than Me, for there is no Savior besides Me.”) are all from #3467: Yasha, the Hebrew word for Savior.

    The name Isaiah (#3470), before it was corrupted by translators, was spelled YashaYah, meaning “Yah has saved.” Many of the names of the prophets and patriarchs in the Bible contain the name of the Father or Savior, but nowhere does it refer you to numbers #7769, shuwa or #7770, shua, or #7744, shuah. They are of Canaanite or Chaldean origin, not Hebrew.

    The Hebrew word for Savior (#3467) reads as follows: Yasha; a primitive root; properly, to be open, wide or free, i.e. (by implication) to be safe; causatively, to free or succor: avenging, defend, deliver (-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save (-iour), get victory.

    “Joshua” is the Canaanite corruption and English misspelling of Hoshea. The root of each of these words is #3467. In no way does shua, shuah, or shuwa mean savior or salvation. The Savior’s name is pronounced YAH-sha. His Father’s name is YAH and the Savior came in his Father’s name.

    I have called on the Savior many times by the name “Jesus” and in no way would we suggest that he does not hear and answer prayer made to him in that name. But I feel this is the time of restoration. It is time to bring the Church out of the Babylonian system and unite her in the truth. Since the time of the dark ages, the Church has struggled to free herself completely from the cords that entangled her and dimmed her light. The Spirit is once again calling for another step toward restoration. There will be those that will hear the voice of the Spirit that is crying, “Be not partakers of her sins...,” Revelations 18:4.

    For every truth that has been revealed and accepted since the days of Martin Luther, there has been a great resistance and persecution. But restitution must come and with every wave of glory will come more persecution. Fear not, the fire is turned up to finish the refining process. The names Yahweh and Yasha have been rejected for years even by his people.

    The removal of the names of the Father and his Son must be considered evil and a dishonor. It is one of the wrongs that must be set right just as the biblical feast and the Sabbath. And those who choose to participate will suffer for their stand. Listen to the words of Yasha,

    “Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted, and will kill you; and you will be hated by all the nations for my name’s sake,” Matthew 24:9.

    “And you will be hated by all on account of my name. . . ,” Mark 13:13.

    “I have come in the name of My Father you do not receive Me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive that one,” John 5:43.

    “And you will be hated by all on account of My name,” Luke 21:17................MORE

    http://christthecreativeword.org/Messages/the_name_that_is_above_every_nam.htm

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa said:

    The bible is silent and condemns by it's silence. Birthdays were known biblically but neither the uncurrupted Jews (Herod took up pagan practises including birthdays) or early Christians celebrated Birthdays. If birthdays were okay why didn't they celebrate them?

    The bible doesn't give us a date for Jesus's birth, why?

    My reply: Baseless assertions like usual Reniaa. They simply were not a part of the Jewish culture- the same as Boxing Day is not a part of the American culture. Anything beyond that is conjecture.

  • AwSnap
    AwSnap

    You may find this old thread interesting. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/160613/1/Lets-list-everything-that-has-pagan-origins

    There is SOooOOOooo much that has pagan origins. Even jw's practice many things that came from paganism. I'm to the point where I dont believe paganism is even wrong. I've met some beautiful pagans, and I think God loves them just as he loves me. We're all in this together.

  • iceguy
    iceguy

    I guess Debator does not care to debate the great points brought in this thread?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Almost everything we do has a pagn background since paganisim predates the Judeo-Christian religion(s).

    Bdays, Anniversaries, cerimonies, wedding bands, days of the week, months of the year, water purification rites, etc, etc.

    These debates are nothing new, Paul found himself facing them and what did he say?

    Romans 14:5–8 (NIV)

    5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who...

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