you are also deciding not to have belief
This is false. I didnt decide that.
You decided to not jump from an airplane right now. You decided not to believe the movie matrix is real but just a movie.....ahhh no you didnt
oh, what to believe! (everyone welcome, atheists and agnostics especially)
by zannahdoll 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
cyberjesus
-
zannahdoll
I stole this from ZuesRocks youtube clip on this atheist definition thread:
Atheist: (n) one without belief in, or one who lacks a belief in, the existence of a god or god(s).
You have no belief. You have nothing to prove or disprove, I get that... excuse my prior slip saying you decide not to believe, it is hard to remember. You never decided not to believe in the Spaghetti Monster, although I think you do believe in Mickey Mouse...
You may not decide not to believe in a general sense. However, at one time you did believe. You did decide to go against what you at one time you did believe. You decided there was lack of evidence, and therefore decided no belief. Is that true? Do I have that accurately?
We both seek the truth... however we may come to different conclusions as to what the truth is. Does that make your conclusion accurate and mine false? Does that mean there are more then one truths? What if the truths conflict? If truth conflicts then one would be a lie and not true at all. Right now my truth is in conflict with yours and they are not in agreement. So I am sharing how I come to the conclusion of there being a deity, I'm sharing what is my truth... please: tell me what is false so I can know the truth better.
-
Quandry
Welcome to the forum.
I was a JW for more than thirty years. It was very disillutioning to find out much about the WT Society's history and past flip-flopping doctrine. I do not have a particular religion right now. I have some Catholic friends at work and feel that they are fine people.
As someone one this board once said, "Better to have questions that can't be answered, than answers you can't question." This is the point that I am at right now. I just don't know what to believe as far as doctrine. I do, however, believe in God and Jesus. I try to be a good person.
-
cyberjesus
However, at one time you did believe.
>>>exactly I believed. I believed lies i believed fairy tales and stories
You did decide to go against what you at one time you did believe.
>>Nope I did not decided that in the same sense I did not decided to believe either. I did not questioned my belief in god either. I was indoctrinated I was told I did not have a consious desiciion to belive in God. So that decisition was never taken. Well now that i realized that I didnt decided that then i just stopped believing. If you are driving a freaking car and the gas tank gets empty then you will slow down. because its empty. Why do you keep insisting that I decided to stop the car? there is no agenda. I ran out of the fuel that moved me in GOD's path.
You decided there was lack of evidence
>>lack of evidence is a fact. not a desicion. two different things. Ultimetely it doesnt matter what I think, feel or decide. If there is evidence there is evidence. if there isnt there isnt.
, and therefore decided no belief. Is that true? Do I have that accurately?
>>>Nope, wrong. We can take desicions either good or bad. they have nothing to do with the facts. I did not decided not to belief. That would mean that I say to myself "uh myself lets not belief in God" --- "oh ok that sounds good" that... never happened.
We both seek the truth...
>> I dont, that was a prerogative for me for a while but not anymore. I have better things to do. That is only for Religious people. I dont care anymore. If there is a God and if he wants me to do something he will. if he doesnt he wont. IF I want my son to do his homeword and chores I will tell him or make him. but I will be involved. IF I dont care about him I wont even bug him. That is if I have a Son....well it happens that I do, and I care for him so I make sure he hears me with straight commands and guidance. I am not gonna give him hidden codes in weird languages and leave things for interpretation and see if he gets it right.
however we may come to different conclusions as to what the truth is.
>>I am not arguing the truth.
Does that make your conclusion accurate and mine false? Does that mean there are more then one truths? What if the truths conflict? If truth conflicts then one would be a lie and not true at all. Right now my truth is in conflict with yours and they are not in agreement. So I am sharing how I come to the conclusion of there being a deity,
>> what if there are more options? We use the term God so therefore we talk about him, what if ther is no him? what if its a her? what if instead of having a head and body like us (spiritually ) of course what if he has a head and body like a monkey? why does God looks like us? and not other species of his creation? Could it be because we invented him? What if the monkeys believe in God? do you think their God would look like a human or like a monkey? What if God looks like an amoeba? We dont dont and it doesnt matter to me anymore. If it matters to him if he exists then he will make sure i get it. otherwise why waste time?
I'm sharing what is my truth... please: tell me what is false so I can know the truth better.
>>what does your truth mean? what if its only your opinion? see to mormons their truth is that they are gonna live in a planet and have lots of sex. but it doesnt matter to me because thats only their opinion, they cant prove it. to discuss it would beuseless to me. unless they can provide evidence.
you have your truth but also millions of poeple in the world.. should we discuss everypersons truth to see which one is the truth? Your reality will be whatever you want it to be. I love my brain so I cant believe in something I dont have evidence or a way to prove it.
If you decide to belive in Mickey Mouse and want to have a debate with me..... well if I am bored sure I will jump into it. if you provide evidence then i will even follow him too. but if you tell me that you feel he exists that your gut feeling that your super power experiences have revelead to you then i will say to you ... God Bless you have fun. Theres no point of having a debate because you already decided that it must have been mickey mouse who spoke to you..... unless you question it.
-
BurnTheShips
Dear zannahdoll.
What a thread!
I don't think there is anything wrong with believing in God. There is also nothing wrong with taking the evidence of our senses and understanding that the theory of evolution explains many things, very well. Bohm's response above underscores this.
To give you some idea of where I am coming from, I was a Jehovah's Witness for the first 32 years of my life.
In the past 4 years, I have left them, and embraced Catholicism for myself after a great deal of thinking, reading, meditating, and soul searching.
There is a depth and breadth to Catholic thinking. It is a huge mansion, with many abodes.
An intelligent forum for discussion of these things from a diverse Catholic perspective (although there are plenty of non-Catholics and atheists as well) is:
BTS
-
Octarine Prince
Destruction
of dire
Constructs
construed to be
Disastrous.
The Masters of Us,
or pretenders there of,
did hassle and harass us
out of so-called love.
Escaped the Dark Tower,
Our Prison-Sanctuary.
Regained Our lost Power
through honest Self-Inquiry.
-
zannahdoll
>>Nope I did not decided that in the same sense I did not decided to believe either. I did not questioned my belief in god either. I was indoctrinated I was told I did not have a consious desiciion to belive in God. So that decisition was never taken. Well now that i realized that I didnt decided that then i just stopped believing. If you are driving a freaking car and the gas tank gets empty then you will slow down. because its empty. Why do you keep insisting that I decided to stop the car? there is no agenda. I ran out of the fuel that moved me in GOD's path.
You ran out of fuel and others still have fuel... do those with fuel then have an agenda? You say stopping your car is without agenda, so, to me this presupposes that someone who doesn't stop the car then has an agenda. All I'm trying to do is see WHY you ran out of fuel, when I still have fuel. I'm sharing my fuel... why doesn't it work for your car? That's all I'm asking.
>>>Nope, wrong. We can take desicions either good or bad. they have nothing to do with the facts. I did not decided not to belief. That would mean that I say to myself "uh myself lets not belief in God" --- "oh ok that sounds good" that... never happened.
That made me laugh! --- okay, so that never happened, in that manner... but it did so happen that you asked questions, that, while you still had belief you researched it, and, in researching it you found the conclusion that there is no evidence. Finding a conclusion = making an educated guess = decision. Your decisions are based on evidence. Some things, like deciding what flavor ice cream we will have or not to have ice cream at all when it is served to you, are simple decisions that follow your formula "uh myself, let's not have ice cream" --- "Oh ok that sounds good" while other decisions, such as were to live or what to do in a moral dilemma will take a little more conversation with oneself "should I live in New York or travel over seas? Will I get homesick... the weather is good here, it is more expensive there... etc..." or "do I let my friend cheat of my homework? cheating is wrong, then again they didn't get to study because they had a family emergency at home" or "do I let this person steal from the rich to give to the poor? Or steal food because they are starving? I am against stealing... but..."
An idea or concept of God was presented to you. Even in your definition of the word Atheist the definition is dependent on knowing the meaning of the word God. That is a revelation I had talking to you on this thread: Your definition of Atheist: lack of belief in god(s) - can you even define "atheist" without using the word "god" ???? So how do you discuss what it is to be an atheist without discussing god? Most atheist conversations are about the wrongs of religion, about how illogical the idea of god is, etc... the word Atheist presupposes that the concept of god(s) is presented to you. On a small scale: if ice cream is presented to you and you decide not to have any: that is a choice; it is a decision. You reject the ice cream. If the concept of God is presented to you and you decide that it is foolishness and you don't believe in it (again: the definition of atheist presupposes that at least the concept of god is known) so you don't believe in anything; you lack belief: you are rejecting what has been presented: that is a choice; a decision.
>>you have your truth but also millions of poeple in the world.. should we discuss everypersons truth to see which one is the truth? Your reality will be whatever you want it to be. I love my brain so I cant believe in something I dont have evidence or a way to prove it.
A few times here I mention how there seem to be truths for everyone... I'm looking more to what is in common, not what divides us. I do not agree with Mormon's doctrine, however I do tend to agree with much of their ideology. Among the nicest people are mormons. One mormon friend, knowing I was Catholic and not likely to convert, drove me home to San Diego, California from Salt Lake, Utah simply so I wouldn't have to buy a plane ticket. I only saw this friend once since... no ulterior motive, no try at a kiss good bye... (which I secretly wanted). There are many things I have in common with the mormons. And there are many things I have in common with atheists... What is true? What is kind? I am not asking to discuss "every person's truth" but what is, or tends to be, true for most people...
>>Theres no point of having a debate because you already decided that it must have been mickey mouse who spoke to you
I do not have my mind made up on "Mickey Mouse" or on God... hence this thread: hence the questioning. This is not the first time I have questioned it. This will surely not be the last. I feel I have learned from you... To say that there is no point in debating a person who IS questioning: well, to me that sounds like a person who has his mind made up.
Thank you for the welcome. I haven't been on debate forums like this for at least some 10 years, I used to debate and converse with atheists regularly, but at one point they have heard all you have to say and you have heard all they have to say and it grows tiresome... Just recently it sparked me again, because I do have doubts. I don't always engage in debates with atheists when I have doubts, but I am in constant doubt. The one thing is that none of us know anything for sure. I don't claim that. However I trust that things are true, and many times, when I am very comfortable in that trust, I do say "I know God is true" ---
I had visited a couple of catholic forums and found that there were not many atheists/non Catholics so I didn't feel it was a good place to gain their perspective. I tend to find atheists incredibly intelligent and genuinely love what they have to say, because I feel that people tend to innately come to the concept of God (many cultures, early societies and modern societies all have a belief in a god or gods - they all may disagree on the details about those gods but generally most people do believe there is one) so to explain away, what in my thinking, is a natural conclusion: you have to be pretty good. So thank you for the catholic forum. :) Although: there is some comfort coming to a board to speak with atheists were no one knows who you are... On a Catholic board: someone might know me! But, for me, it is home, I love the Catholic Faith: it is so beautiful to me. I think I'll check it out. The theology is awesome. Have you read any of the Theology of the Body? good stuff!
-
Terry
I think by definition GOD cannot fit inside a human mind without radical distortions. A real God, that is.
Consequently, all the mean-spirited corruption on the religious highway of history reflects on the distortion called God.
The first thing that happens when people start talking about God is that a wall goes up between them called I'M RIGHT/YOU'RE WRONG.
And that is just a hop and skip away from disrespecting the humanity of our species.
Belief is for people who don't want to think, in my opinion. A genuine God could not possibly crave admiration from a corrupt species (which is how the Bible identifies humanity.) LOGICALLY an infinitely superior being would neither waste His thoughts on condemning or forgiving humanity for the very thing they are.
So, thinking about God is futile self-delusion because we cannot know anything truly divine. That only leaves self-lies and an excuse to view your fellow man as the OTHER.
We find in idle chatter about God's Will a base abandonment of our species to supernatural hubris.
We learn how to see ourselves as failures, sinners, corrupt dung, worthless dregs and doomed beggars at the table of heaven.
What is noble and transcendant in man is ignored.
I fight with all my energy against the easy palaver of God experts so quick to smear their interpretations on my toast.
They are traitors to our species, in my view. They cannot know God, describe Him meaningfully nor run down a list of my failures to impress the Divine Masculine HIM in the clouds. As though the True Creator would dangle a spirit penis from his immaterial being!
Such tiny thinking; small minded certainty cannot trump the rational with rhetorical metaphors and fulminations of ill temper disguised as Divine Will.
-
zannahdoll
Thanks, Terry. I think you are the first one who gave me a reason as to why you think the way you do. I find that talking to my atheist friend has become a bit of a game of semantics and it makes it difficult to communicate.
Sadly, I agree with you when you say this:
The first thing that happens when people start talking about God is that a wall goes up between them called I'M RIGHT/YOU'RE WRONG.
And that is just a hop and skip away from disrespecting the humanity of our species.
That is true for all creeds and lack there of. It's a shame that we do this to one another. I think the most beautiful thing to do is try to understand another's perspective. I think there is potential to learn something from every person we meet. However, I feel, you're at fault of it too in your next line:
Belief is for people who don't want to think, in my opinion
There are many great theologians, philosophers, even scientists who promote a belief throughout history. Now, I've heard from non-theists that this is because of lack of advancement in society (lack of science/technology) and so people made up stories to fill in the cracks. Sort of a cop out. However, with all our advancements in science our knowledge only leads to further questions, more uncertainty. The more we learn the more we realize we didn't really know in the first place, I think this is a common truth for all those who love to learn, for all the philosophers... Why are their cracks that needed filling any different from our cracks that need filling? Just as an atheist will say today that they don't want to Assume God for the things that do not make sense to us so could our ancestors also say they would not make such assumptions. I don't believe they were so stupid or uncivilized... some technologies that came about in the past have been lost to us forever and we, today, have no idea (we can guess, but we don't really know) how they did it. (Stonehenge in the United Kingdom, Pyramids of Egypt and Mexico, Water Ducts of Ancient Greece, water-tight woven baskets made by American Indians)
So: is belief due to lack of thinking??? Yes, there are a great deal many differences between the religions of the world... however: it is very interesting that different cultures that did not likely interact with one another all over the world all had some sort of deity or deities. One of the reasons that keeps me believing are the similarities between all these... What I think of as Universal Truths... So: did we really invent God to fill in the blanks? Or is there a need for a God that is already present?
A genuine God could not possibly crave admiration from a corrupt species (which is how the Bible identifies humanity.) LOGICALLY an infinitely superior being would neither waste His thoughts on condemning or forgiving humanity for the very thing they are.
My understanding of God is that God = Love. I saw in another thread that you address this, and I read it, I haven't had a chance to respond to that yet... however, for the sake of what I'm about to say accept for a moment God=Love.
- When we love don't we wish to be loved in return? Our children are "lesser" in that they cannot physically do what we can, they cannot emotionally or socially deal with things the way we can, they do not have our mental capacities. Yet Mothers are excited when their babies come to them, they are happy when they get hugs and kisses from their children.
- I think it can be agreed by all: living without love is painful, awful: maybe worthless. So: to tell those around us they need to be loved and to act lovingly (be kind, do charitable acts, or at least socially civil to function in society) We tell our loved ones that they should be loving. We tell them we love them. It would make sense that what would follow is to tell them they need love.
In so doing, in line with thinking that God=Love, For God to tell people they need God would be like saying "you need love" Also: if you have a creation it would be natural to think it would resemble you. I see "made in God's Image" as being made for the purpose of loving. Further it would make sense that you would want to share that.
To me: the condemnation comes in saying that if you decide to live without love then you will not have it. (plug in "God" for love). So, by how we act (in a loving manner or not) is to determine our consequences.
This is my thinking, however, I'm not alone in thinking this: there are many greater thinkers who have come to this. Basically: we decide our hell, we decide our heaven.
So, thinking about God is futile self-delusion because we cannot know anything truly divine. That only leaves self-lies and an excuse to view your fellow man as the OTHER.
I don't know: some say that the stars and heavens are divine. Mother Nature is divine. Love is divine. These are all things that we can know... We may not fully know or understand it... but we do know it in part. And: for me: this leaves me to see my fellow man as my brother... we have a shared sense of divinity (God is in all, God is everywhere... there is a song about a God-Shaped Hole in our hearts)...
We find in idle chatter about God's Will a base abandonment of our species to supernatural hubris.
Many people find community and a sense of family when even our idle chatter is about God's Will. I have quite a few friends of over 10 years who we grew closer together because of our faith. They are what have made my life a treasure. And we have done much work to feed the hungry and help the less fortunate. So, how would you define abandonment of our species?
We learn how to see ourselves as failures, sinners, corrupt dung, worthless dregs and doomed beggars at the table of heaven.
Yes, this is true. It keeps us in check because we also learn to see ourselves as royalty: sons and daughters of the Almighty God (as Christians: brothers and sisters to Christ). We learn to see our selves as supernatural: made in God's image. We see ourselves as important: God has counted every hair on our heads. We see ourselves as spiritually connected: one body; many parts. We learn not to be materialistic because we can't take it with us and there are more important things to be concerned with (such as love)... We learn success can still come after failure, that success can conquer failure: Life after Crucifixion is the biggest example for Christians.
-
moshe
Everyone tries to prove there is a God using human logic, which is all we have. Unfortunately we miss the point that even human logic can't solve a paradox.
Look at this classic Crocodile paradox from Wikipedia-
-The Crocodile Dilemma is an unsolvable problem in logic.[1] The premise states that a crocodile who has stolen a child promises the father that his son will be returned if and only if he can correctly predict what the crocodile will do.
The transaction is logically smooth (but unpredictable) if the father guesses that the child will be returned, but a dilemma arises for the crocodile if he guesses that the child will not be returned. In the case that the crocodile decides to keep the child, he violates his terms: the father's prediction has been validated, and the child should be returned. However, in the case that the crocodile decides to give back the child, he still violates his terms, even if this decision is based on the previous result: the father's prediction has been falsified, and the child should not be returned. The question of what the crocodile should do is therefore paradoxical, and there is no justifiable solution.
----
If paradoxes exist for humans, then I believe we can't find an answer about God and the life on Earth either, as it has to be the biggest paradox of all. Quit worrying about Theism.