The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

by Doug Mason 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Doug Mason

  sir82,

  What you say makes sense. Paul's writings came first, and he died before any of the gospels hit the shops. Since he was at loggerheads with the Jewish Christians at Jerusalem (they would not have been too excited at what he wrote about the Law to the Galatians and to the Romans), it is not unlikely that their writings were intended to counter his. Just see how legalistic Jesus is in their writings.

  During the succeeding centuries, the various Christian sects remained at loggerheads, and a reason Paul is paramount in the writings they canonised lies in the fact that the emperors of the eastern Roman Empire selected the Pauline group, and thus created orthodoxy (but did not resolve the isssues).

  Most likely Paul's ideas were selected because they were better accommodated to the Roman/Hellenistic philosophising than were the legalistic requirements (circumcision, etc.) of the Jewish Christians based at Jerusalem.

  Doug
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  Doug Mason

  Deputy Dog,

  It is likely that both the Passover and Yom Kippur (Day of Atonment) can be applied. I wonder which equates better with Paul's soteriology?

  Does it fit better the casting of sin upon the beast and the sending of the other beast into the wilderness?

  Doug
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  Doug Mason

  leolaia,

  Many more years ago than I would care to admit, I read an interesting article called "Don't build your theology on metaphors". I might still have it among my papers and I will share it if I ever come across it again.

  Doug
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  freydo

  I always had a big problem with the wtbt$$ idea that one's death pardoned guilt.

  If that were true then it would nullify the need for a ransom. This is a very good thread.

  What I've been wrestling with in addition to what's already been suggested is the time between

  Yasha's death and the appearance of letters from Paul which amounted to at least 20 years.

  Clearly there were many congregations that were formed that Paul persecuted.

  So what was the basis of these formations? They were still keeping the Law.

  It had not been abolished. Only certain parts, including adult circumcision
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  designs

  freydo-

  You have touched on one of the important issues about Paul's (Pauline theology) and the Jesus of the Gospels. Was Jesus advocating dismantleing Judaism as Paul does or was he suggesting an idea that had been evolving within Judaism for many centuries. 'The Kingdom within'.
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  Farkel

  sir82,

  ::Re: The meaning of Jesus' death, without Paul

  :Seems a rather moot question.

  Yeah. I was thinking the same thing. It's like asking about "the meaning of God, without the Bible!"

  Farkel
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  PSacramento

  Jesus wasn't talking about dismantaling anything, neither was Paul.

  Jesus message came because the "right" message was lost/never understood correctly.

  Like Paul mentions a few times, if the Old Covenant had worked, there would have been no need for a new one.

  The Hebrews took 10 commandments, for example, and from them created a system of laws that turned "salvation bia the Law" as something unattainble.

  Like Paul said, without the Law to point out the "sin", one would not have any "sin".

  Truly that Hebrew scribes basicly became the "word/law" of God with all the extra crap they added on in "God's name".
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  freydo

  freydo- You have touched on one of the important issues about Paul's (Pauline theology) and the Jesus of the Gospels.

  Thanks designs - there is obviously some need of reconciliation here, as there are at least one of about three possibilities.

  a) Paul was a false apostle

  b) His letters have either been mistranslated or misunderstood

  c) His letters were either never written by him or they've been tampered with.

  I seem to be falling somewhere between b and c, as there is simply no way to merge Yasha's words at Matt 5:17, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law..." with those of Paul that the Law was abolished
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  designs

  freydo- You are very wise Grasshopper

  ssssh you'll upset the Protestants
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  PSacramento

  COntext guys.

  What law did Paul say was to be abolished? man's law ( Added to the 10 commandments) or God's Law ( the 10 comandments).

  And Jesus did not abolish the Law as given to Moses, but he did make clear that what was added was incorrect ( dietary restictions for example) and much was over blown and used to control the people ( case in point the sabbath).