Brotherdan... what's your opinion on this point of view?
To new Christians on JWN
by brotherdan 284 Replies latest watchtower bible
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whereami
Also... I would like to know your take on this series of videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Evid3nc3#g/c/A0C3C1D163BE880A
I sent you the playlist so it would be easier for you. It's a 16 part series. Take your time. I know it's long but please take your time and realy try to think about it.
When your done please feel free to come back to this thread or make a new one to discuss your opinion on it.
Enjoy.
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brotherdan
He makes his case clear. But he does not factor in faith AT ALL. He ONLY talks about reasoning, which is important but not ALL important. Without faith it is impossible to know God. You can't reason your way to God. There are REASONS for believing in God (many of them). But the nature of God and creation is that faith MUST be involved.
So if he was to ask God, "What was wrong with my reasoning?" What would God say? I think He might say, "You relied on your own reasoning. I TOLD you not to do this. I placed my word in a place that you could get it. But you relied on your own reasoning and because you didn't like what you read, you rejected it." I think it goes back to my comment on Jeremiah 9:23 to not let the wise man boast over his own wisdom.
The problem is that God made it very clear in the Bible what He requires of us. Faith in His son. If we reasoned ourselves out of this faith, well...that's our problem.
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brotherdan
Whereami, I will watch them and honestly keep my mind open.
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whereami
Thanks for your honest take on that video.
And thanks for having the patience and watching that other series. I think you'll find it interesting.
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SweetBabyCheezits
Before you retire this one, BD, you didn't address my post from several pages back so I'm just going to write a new one and hope you see it...
I'll use myself as an example so as to, hopefully, prevent the auto-defense mechanism from kicking in, which always prevented me from getting to the root of my beliefs.
I believed in god because, at least initially, I had faith in people: the bible writers, scribes, translators, my parents, WTBTS, and the Christians in my environment, all of whom helped inculcate that belief in me at my most naive point in life - as a child. Was that not similar for you? I mean you can't really "know" god and have faith in him personally without reading about him, right? And you have to trust the men who wrote about him before you can start developing a "relationship" with him.
Now one of the things that helped me fully wake up to the WT sham was that I couldn't help but notice how sincere and devout some people in other religions were. And yet they were going to die at armageddon, blinded from "the truth". But what if that was all they ever knew, I asked. If legitmately deceived, that would hardly be just and loving. How would a Mormon, for example, ever question his beliefs if he was raised as such? His judgment was based on flawed foundation, built for him as a child, with a wall of deception blocking him from reality! (At the time, I only considered Mormon doctrine to be the flawed foundation.)
Only after backing away from the organization and setting out to find truth did I realize that my judgment was still clouded by bias that remained from my childhood. If I was being honest with myself I couldn't continue forward without removing presuppositions about the bible and god. The point is that bias can lead to self-deception and unreliable judgment.
So how does one eliminate bias? By analyzing his own cherished beliefs/feelings honestly under the same scrutiny as the beliefs or holy book of another religion.
You're a thinking individual. Help me answer some questions and if the logic is sound, I will try to find my faith in god again.
- When would a shrewd, critical-thinking person accept any holy book, but specifically the bible, if he had never heard of religion or god at all (neutral - zero bias)?
- If you'd never heard of such things, but had your logic and intellect otherwise in tact, would you accept the story of Adam and Eve and a talking snake at face value? Jonah and the big fish? A talking donkey? The flood? The rainbow explanation?
- Would you be quick to stretch things to explain away contradictions if you hadn't already concluded it was god's unfailing word?
- Would a loving god really expect us to live our lives through a book that we couldn't possibly believe if it weren't for someone else 'inculcating' it in us at our most weak, impressionable time in life?
As for critical-thinking individuals who accept a holy book as literal later in life, not having been exposed to that bias earlier in life, if you find one, let me know. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I would like to learn more about their experience.
Oh, one other thing: you made passing reference - more or less - to Pascal's Wager, which has serious holes in the logic. Check YouTube for "Betting on Infinity". Really interesting short video.
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hotchocolate
I'm a lover not a fighter any way. While the boys fight I take care of the girls...
Sure, they need someone to shop with until us men are back :)
LMAO... ah this is great stuff. We need a "like" button!
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zombie dub
Dude, how can you say I'm running away? This thread is 13 effing pages. I TIRED OF IT. You are the one twisting words.
You have avoided many questions on this thread though, a few I asked included.
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Black Sheep
It is merely what the Bible says on the issue. And I really do think it's insightful to what you new Christians to JWN may encounter here. Psalm 14:1 says "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one that does good."
I have been away on holiday and I have no idea what has gone before.
After I found my way out of the WT mire I found peace with myself and realised that Jesus was God and was my saviour. It didn't take long to grow out of that delusion and learn that the notions of gods that had been presented to me throughout my life were all as valid/invalid as each other and that the Rainbow Serpent was just as real as Jehovah, Allah, and the turtle that balances the earth upon it's back.
A 'god' that trashes a fig tree for no better reason other than to impress his followers with his prowess is no better than the kid down your street that blows up your letterbox to show off to his mates. That is a very 'human' god, displaying very human attributes, not a superhuman space creature/creator/god/WT killer god that deserves respect from us earthbound lesser beings.
I am partly onside with Arthur Weigall, (often quoted as a n expert by the WT) who believed that Christianity was merged with Paganism before/as the NT was written. His cognitive dissonance is on display in 'Paganism in our Christianity' (Quoted by the WTBTS in the SYBINT bochure), Arthur's Christian ideals and upbringing clashing with his knowledge of Egyptian history.
To new Christians on this forum......... don't get too carried away with your fabulous new found beliefs. Look up 'cult hopping' on google. You don't have to find a new Guru to follow. Jeebooboo/Allah/Flying Spaghetti Monster ain't gonna kill you coz you don't know what they eat for breakfast
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snowbird
You held your own, Brother Dan.
I was pummeled unmercifully on this thread, http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/151311/1/The-God-of-the-Old-Testament-is-arguably-the-most-unpleasant-character, so I feel ya.
Syl