Ah, thanks. I'll have a look round. :)
Staying "Loyal" and King David/Saul Question...
by Confucious 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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sabastious
"Tag! YOUR IT!"
"Tag... YOUR IT!"
"Nope! God chose me to lead!"
"So you don't have to follow the rules now?"
"Exactly."
-Sab
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daringhart13
Its absurd reasoning....and if they were a true Bible student....or hell, just had some common sense....they would understand the difference.
First....Kind David fled "God's visible organization" on several occasions. With King Saul.....with Absalom.... in each case, it wasn't that David was disloyal to JEHOVAH...... he simply had the BALLS to get away from something that was WRONG.
The key lesson is this: he got out of a corrupt 'organization'...but made no effort to fight against it. He could have whacked Saul on several occasions.....but believed it was Jehovah's job to do so (See Romans 12)....... he simply "went away" and hid.....from guess who....THOSE WITHIN the "organization' that made every effort to hunt him down and harm him!!
Sound familiar?
Oh yes....its a DIRECT parallel to what goes on today. You can't simply 'exit'....they come after you...... but they are entirely too blind to see that it is THEM that are acting like Saul and Absalom.
David wasn't loyal to an organization.........he was loyal to GOD HIMSELF.
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Confucious
GREAT GREAT posts here.
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Confucious
Again... great points.
If David was truly loyal to God's Organization under bad leadership - then he would NOT have ran and hid.
He would have have volunteered himself and put his own head on a platter - since that's what Saul wanted.
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Confucious
Sorry to post as I think...
But this might be worthy of another thread...
But David was willing to Die for God (and God's Organization) when he tought it to be right (vs. Golaith).
But when "God's Organization" (Saul) wanted him dead.
If he thought it was wrong - he left God's Organization (so to speak).
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TrueScript
Two points hopefully of assistance.
1) Christian's have no king other than Christ. A king can be overthrown, not the his appointed agent. If one the claiming to be his agent really isn't, that one is to be rejected.
2) Saul's position did not require his subjects' blind obedience. 1 Samuel 22:17 demonstrates the rejection of his command when it was against God's law.
TrueScript
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debator
Good points trueScript also the assumption here is that being an organisation is a position of wrongdoing itself? so the whole concept of flock/congregation/holy nation/organisation as something that is to be rejected is a false one. Especially given after Saul's Death David himself became head of the nation of Israel without changing any of the structure of command itself.
This begs the question if some on here are truly rejecting witnesses or would if possible do an about-turn viewing themselves as "David" and become the new rulers of God's people?
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pirata
A few related articles:
*** it-2 pp. 871-872 Saul ***
Rejected by God.Throughout Saul’s reign there were repeated battles against the Philistines and other peoples, including the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, and Amalekites. (1Sa 14:47, 48, 52) In the war against the Amalekites, Saul transgressed Jehovah’s command by sparing the best of their flock and herd as well as their king, Agag. When asked why he had not obeyed Jehovah’s voice, Saul disclaimed guilt and shifted the blame onto the people. Only after Samuel emphasized the serious nature of the sin and said that, because of it, Jehovah was rejecting him as king did Saul acknowledge that his error was the result of his fearing the people. After Saul pleaded with Samuel to honor him in front of the older men and in front of Israel by accompanying him, Samuel did appear with him before them. Then Samuel himself proceeded to put Agag to death. After that, Samuel parted from Saul and they had no further association.—1Sa 15:1-35.
It was after this and after the anointing of David as Israel’s future king that Jehovah’s spirit left Saul. From then on “a bad spirit from Jehovah terrorized him.” Having withdrawn his spirit from Saul, Jehovah made it possible for a bad spirit to gain possession of him, depriving Saul of his peace of mind and stirring up his feelings, thoughts, and imaginations in a wrong way. Saul’s failure to obey Jehovah indicated a bad inclination of mind and heart, against which God’s spirit offered Saul no protection or resistive force. However, since Jehovah had permitted the “bad spirit” to replace his spirit and terrorize Saul, it could be termed a “bad spirit from Jehovah,” so that Saul’s servants spoke of it as “God’s bad spirit.” On the recommendation of one of his attendants, Saul requested that David be his court musician to calm him when he was troubled by the “bad spirit.”—1Sa 16:14-23; 17:15.
*** w00 6/15 pp. 13-14 Honor the Ones Given Authority Over You ***
Respect Despite Imperfection
8 There are many examples in the Bible of those who honored individuals in authority, even when these misused or abused their authority. David was one such fine example. King Saul, under whom he served, became jealous of David’s achievements and sought to kill him. (1 Samuel 18:8-12; 19:9-11; 23:26) Still, though having opportunities to kill Saul, David said: “It is unthinkable, on my part, from Jehovah’s standpoint, to thrust my hand out against the anointed of Jehovah!” (1 Samuel 24:3-6; 26:7-13) David knew that Saul was in the wrong, but he left it up to Jehovah to judge him. (1 Samuel 24:12, 15; 26:22-24) He did not speak abusively of or to Saul.
9 Was David distressed while he was being mistreated? “There are . . . tyrants that do seek my soul,” David cried out to Jehovah. (Psalm 54:3) He poured out his heart to Jehovah: “Deliver me from my enemies, O my God . . . Strong ones make an attack upon me, for no revolt on my part, nor any sin on my part, O Jehovah. Though there is no error, they run and get themselves ready. Do rouse yourself at my calling and see.” (Psalm 59:1-4) Have you ever felt the same way—that you had done no wrong to a person in authority, yet he kept giving you a hard time? David did not fail to show respect to Saul. Upon Saul’s death, instead of exulting in joy, David composed a dirge: “Saul and Jonathan, the lovable ones and the pleasant ones during their life . . . Swifter than the eagles they were, mightier than the lions they were. You daughters of Israel, weep over Saul.” (2 Samuel 1:23, 24) What a fine example of genuine respect for the anointed of Jehovah, even though David had been wronged by Saul!
10 In the Christian era, we also find outstanding examples of those honoring God-given authorities. Take, for instance, Paul. He showed respect for the decisions of the first-century governing body of the Christian congregation. During Paul’s last visit to Jerusalem, the governing body counseled him to cleanse himself ceremonially to show others that he harbored no animosity toward the Mosaic Law. Paul could have reasoned: ‘Those brothers previously instructed me to leave Jerusalem when my life was threatened. Now they want me to demonstrate in public that I respect the Mosaic Law. I’ve already written a letter to the Galatians advising them to keep free from observing the Law. If I go to the temple, others may misunderstand my action, thinking that I am compromising with those of the circumcised class.’ However, Paul evidently did not reason that way. Since no compromise of Christian principles was involved, he respected and complied with the counsel of the first-century governing body. The immediate result was that Paul had to be rescued from a Jewish mob, and he subsequently spent two years in prison. In the long term, God’s will was done. Paul witnessed before high officials in Caesarea and then was taken at government expense to Rome to witness before Caesar himself.—Acts 9:26-30; 21:20-26; 23:11; 24:27; Galatians 2:12; 4:9, 10.
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OUTLAW
This begs the question if some on here are truly rejecting witnesses or would if possible
do an about-turn viewing themselves as "David" and become the new rulers of God's people?.....Reniaa/Debator
Anyone who has tried to change the WBT$..
Was told to shut up or be thrown out..
You would have to be a Jehovah`s Witness to understand that..
Not a WBT$ Cheerleader who can`t be bothered to follow WBT$ Rules..
"Yaaay!..I`m gonna be a Jehovah`s Witness one Day!"
............................
...OUTLAW
