The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest 404 Replies latest jw friends

OUTLAW

Hey Shelby!..
You have a PM..
.......................... ...OUTLAW
cognizant dissident

I appreciated your response Shelby, because it was from the heart and your experience and didn't carry any judgemental tone or comments (well at least not much ;-). I can't argue with it because it dealt solely with your subjective belief and experiences and contrary to what you stated, I have no wish to talk people out of their beliefs.
However, if one puts up one's beliefs for public discussion, then I will discuss them from my perspective and will not pretend to agree where I don't.
The one problem I did have with your post was the analogy of the stove. I don't think it fits your argument and actually proves my point. Because, we can both see the stove with our common eyes, we can both touch the stove and feel it with our hands. We can both hear the click of the burner as it turns on. We can see your burnt flesh if you touch the stove. We can both smell it. We can both lick the spilled substance off the stove and both agree that it is indeed chocolate. This is what I mean by common senses that allow us to agree on reality.
The one thing that humans have that allows them to come to some consensus on reality is these senses. Now you claim there are other senses, unseen ones and that I do have those receptors but am just refusing to use them. That is where we will have to agree to disagree because there is not a shred of evidence that this is true, that all can perceive, which would make it "common sense". Therefore it is uncommon sense that you are talking about as in a form of extrasensory perception that only some claim to possess. Or else it is a story that someone told you at one time in your life, and you CHOSE to believe it. Which is fine with me, actually. What is not fine with me is CHOOSING to judge others who do not accept other's stories without evidence, or who do not possess the same extrasensory perceptions.
If you truly do have some sort of extra sensory perception that allows you to hear Jesus speak to you with spiritual receptors than indeed you are special. (I say this sincerely). If you have chosen to believe stories told to you in books or in person from others, than you are very normal like the other 90% of others in this world who believe experiences of others and adopt them as their own truths when in fact they are outside their own actual knowledge and experience.
As far as people's mental health is concerned, well, that was no doubt unkind of me to make insinuations on yours. Since atheists, in fact, are the vast minority in society, we are the ones who are outside the societal norms and should be thankful, I suppose, that the majority do not have us thrown into the psyche wards and medicated until we agree to believe in the stories that have become accepted as societal "truths".
Which reminds me of another quote: If people think you are crazy, then you are talking to the wrong people! (I think that was paraphrasing Rumi, but am unsure)
Anyway, at this point, I think we will have to agree to disagree as you say. The meanings that we give to our experiences in this world our quite different and that's one of the things that makes humans interestingly different instead of carbon copies of each other and one of the things we can learn from.
Peace to you (also meant sincerely)
ps: Your job sounds really interesting
tec

I, SA, share this will you, dear PSacto, just as my Lord said it to me.
Psac is not the only one who may have needed to hear this. I know I did. You spoke on another thread about not judging those who belong to Christ - that is between them and him, and that you hoped those who belong to Christ would not judge you or your methods of delivery, since He has accepted you. This was a reminder that I needed.
Am sending you a PM, and I understand that you are busy and tired so no worries about getting back to me. (I also need a few minutes to write it)
Tammy
notverylikely

YOU may consider that circular reasoning but I do not. Rather, it is the truth. Consider, for example, that I have touched a hot stove. I say to you, "Wow, that stove is HOT!" You say to me, "How do YOU know?" And I say, "Because I touched it." You say, "Well, I don't believe you." And I say, "Well, touch it, yourself." And you say, "No, I won't touch it because (1) I don't believe it's hot, and (2) I don't believe that even if I DO touch it, I will feel for myself that it is hot." My next response? "Well, the only way you'll ever find out is to TOUCH it."
Shelby, dear Shelby, you really shouldn't stray into things like evidence, science and testability. You can always hold a thermomenter up to the stove and verification independent of either of us. Problem solved.
But if you never bother to stick out your hand... then you don't really know one way or the other, do you? Yet, you wish us to believe your refusal TO stick our your hand is because you simply don't believe there IS a stove, let alone a hot one.
Or I could look to see if the stove is on, if the burner is glowing, put a pan with butter on the burner and see if it melts, use a thermometer.... point is that there are lots of people that pray and hope to hear from the lord and never do. They are reaching out their hand. Unlike the Lord, though, the stove is hot whether you force their hand out, they accidentally put it out, etc. The Lord is choosey and apparently super crazy picky. That example fails on many levels.
But more importantly, you obviously didn't go through the Door - indeed, you don't even recognize him, let alone know to/how to go through him.
Jesus, unlike a stove, can choose to be hot or not, and apparently he's hot for Shelby.
AGuest

Dearest NVL (and CD) peace to you both! I had intended to respond to NVL previous statements but I think not so much now, because he has once again proven my point that he (1) doesn't read what I post, although he deigns to respond, and (2) attempts to change what I've stated with his responses. His last response is, IMHO, the final evidence I intend to post on that matter. After this, dear NVL, I must be done with our discussions as I now truly know that you just don't get it/me. Here is what I mean (and I hope this clears up your misunderstanding of what I stated, as well - ):
You, dear CD responded:
I don't think it fits your argument and actually proves my point. Because, we can both see the stove with our common eyes, we can both touch the stove and feel it with our hands. We can both hear the click of the burner as it turns on. We can see your burnt flesh if you touch the stove. We can both smell it. We can both lick the spilled substance off the stove and both agree that it is indeed chocolate.
ANd dear NVL responded:
you really shouldn't stray into things like evidence, science and testability. You can always hold a thermomenter up to the stove and verification independent of either of us. Problem solved. Or I could look to see if the stove is on, if the burner is glowing, put a pan with butter on the burner and see if it melts, use a thermometer....
I am not sure why, but for some reason didn't fully see/read what I wrote because I wrote that dear CD stated that she could NOT see it... OR hear it:
"Consider, for example, thatI have touched a hot stove. I say to you, "Wow, that stove is HOT!" You say to me, "How do YOU know?" And I say, "Because I touched it." You say, "Well, I don't believe you." And I say, "Well, touch it, yourself." And you say, "No, I won't touch it because (1) I don't believe it's hot, and (2) I don't believe that even if I DO touch it, I will feel for myself that it is hot." My next response? "Well, the only way you'll ever find out is to TOUCH it."
YOUR response NOW? "I don't believe I CAN touch it. In fact, I don't believe YOU can touch it, that it can BE touched... because I don't believe the stove exists... because I can't SEE or HEAR it."
I in no way indicated that dear CD could see the stove, but that I touched it, said it was hot, she asked how I knew it was hot... but didn't believe me because SHE didn't see a stove... or hear its burner, etc. I wrote it this way, excluding the obviously question of her asking "What stove?" because I considered it already pretty established that at one time she DID think there might be a "stove" there... but now she no longer does; yet, she knows I believe there's a stove there.
To respond to NVL's next statement
point is that there are lots of people that pray and hope to hear from the lord and never do. They are reaching out their hand.
There are two... ummmm... analogies I can give you that might help you "see", dear NVL... if you truly do WANT to see (which really is the issue, isn't it?). The first is an illustration of a room full of people, over 100 souls. There are two exit doors at opposite ends of the room. Above the door to right is a sign that states "Heaven." Above the door to the left is a sign that states "How to Get to Heaven." There is a long line of people going through the door on the left; however, only 2 or 3 go through the door on the right.
The second is not quite an analogy but you might get the point and that is that while many pray and hope... is it not the Lord (Christ) that they are hoping to hear. It is from God. Christ, however, is NOT God. He is the One through whom God speaks. Unfortunately, while so many are waiting to hear the voice of GOD... including those who believe Christ IS God... they are totally overlooking the One whose voice they CAN hear: Christ. NO ONE comes to the Father, except THROUGH Christ. Unfortunately, by making Christ God... they are trying to climb up some other way. They are trying to go directly into the MOST Holy... without going THROUGH the Holy.
Unlike the Lord, though, the stove is hot whether you force their hand out, they accidentally put it out, etc.
Ah, again you err. The Lord is also "hot". BUT... their hand cannot be forced out... nor can they accidentally put it out. They can ONLY "touch" the stove... if THEY WANT TO. I can't make them, I can't make it happen for them... no one can... and they can't chance upon it. And FAITH... is the beginning of how one DEMONSTRATES that one WANTS to.
The Lord is choosey and apparently super crazy picky.
Well, yeah! Hasn't the Father also always been? The Most Holy One of Israel did not choose the world - He chose Israel. And Christ says that while many are called, FEW are chosen. Why are you acting surprised??!!
That example fails on many levels.
Based on your limited understanding, perhaps. Truly, though, it fails for YOU... because you don't WANT to understand. Because you are still letting your fear stand in the way.
Jesus, unlike a stove, can choose to be hot or not, and apparently he's hot for Shelby.
Ah, now, there we go: elementary school put downs. Surely, you can do better than that, dear one? Then again, maybe not. The bottle isn't helping, dear NVL. You will see that, one day. Soon, hopefully.
Again, I bid you both peace, truly!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
notverylikely

doesn't read what I post, although he deigns to respond
Please demonstrate where I did not read what you wrote.
attempts to change what I've stated with his responses
Please demonstrate.
After this, dear NVL, I must be done with our discussions as I now truly know that you just don't get it/me.
You seem to do that after your lord demonstrate a 100% failure rate on everything you said he told you about me and you end up in circular reasoning or caught attempting to deny others the right to use the bible after you have used it. Curious.
I in no way indicated that dear CD could see the stove, but that I touched it, said it was hot, she asked how I knew it was hot... but didn't believe me because SHE didn't see a stove... or hear its burner, etc
Logically inconsistent. Your first argument was that she would not touch it because she did not believe it to be hot, your words "And you say, "No, I won't touch it because (1) I don't believe it's hot, and (2) I don't believe that even if I DO touch it, I will feel for myself that it is hot". Logically, for her to deny that it might be hot she has to be accepting it's existence, otherwise she would be denying it's existance since she couldn't see it. You never indicated in your argument that she couldn't see the stove.
Again, my dear Shelby, and peace to you, you REALLY shouldn't attempt to use logic in your arguments since, like science, you don't understand it at all.
The first is an illustration of a room full of people, over 100 souls. There are two exit doors at opposite ends of the room. Above the door to right is a sign that states "Heaven." Above the door to the left is a sign that states "How to Get to Heaven." There is a long line of people going through the door on the left; however, only 2 or 3 go through the door on the right.
Left or right only means something if all people are standing in the same direction. Since that scene didn't say much, it's not really an analogy other than to say that cardinal directions also aren't your strong point. It would seem that you need to flesh that analogy out a bit more. It seems you might be saying that people like to take the easy way, but I can't be sure since there wasn't much to go on.
The second is not quite an analogy but you might get the point and that is that while many pray and hope... is it not the Lord (Christ) that they are hoping to hear. It is from God. Christ, however, is NOT God.
Since many people aren't sure of the difference, it would seem that Jesus is a picky asshole. When my kids say something other than my name or "dad", but it indicates they need me or need help I can provide, I answer. Your version of Jesus is a total dick for not helping when his children are asking but are so fucking stupid as to use the wrong name. What a douchebag.
Ah, again you err. The Lord is also "hot". BUT... their hand cannot be forced out... nor can they accidentally put it out.
Again, you clearly demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about. I never said the lord wasn't hot. I was using your analogy to show that the stove is hot regardless, that was YOUR analogy for the Jesus. If you are saying they can't be forced to feel the heat, your analogy breaks down and you will need to come up with a better one. Someone could be forced to feel a hot stove, but not a hot Jesus.
Well, yeah! Hasn't the Father also always been? The Most Holy One of Israel did not choose the world - He chose Israel. And Christ says that while many are called, FEW are chosen. Why are you acting surprised??!!
I'm not surprised. And we are talking about the lord, not the father, YHWH. I am not sure why you would mix the two up. And GOD the father DID want the whole world in the beginning. Then he chose an entire nation, then said the whole world could be his after Jesus, and then picked next to no one to get his message right. He's not picky, but he is picky, he wants everyone and then helps almost no one. Sounds like a nutcase.
Based on your limited understanding, perhaps. Truly, though, it fails for YOU... because you don't WANT to understand. Because you are still letting your fear stand in the way.
True, my understanding of how you are going to misapply science, logic, reasoning, critical thinking, analogies or the bible is limited. You constanstly surpise me with new ways to misapply things. And I am afraid. I haven't been working out as much as I should have, I think I am afraid I might have put on 4 or 5 lbs.
Ah, now, there we go: elementary school put downs. Surely, you can do better than that, dear one? Then again, maybe not. The bottle isn't helping, dear NVL. You will see that, one day. Soon, hopefully.
Bullshit. That as at least a middle school put down. In any event, the constant demonstation of being wrong about so many things makes the middle school put down like a twinkie. Something I haven't done in a while, but compared the gourmet meals I can make myself, it was a little indulgence.
tec

Left or right only means something if all people are standing in the same direction. Since that scene didn't say much, it's not really an analogy other than to say that cardinal directions also aren't your strong point. It would seem that you need to flesh that analogy out a bit more. It seems you might be saying that people like to take the easy way, but I can't be sure since there wasn't much to go on.
The door that says how to get into heaven - the bible, preachers, religions, etc.
The door that says heaven - Christ.
Some people put their faith in the book or the teachers/preachers and try to get into heaven through them... and so those are the ones who they go to and find. Some put their faith in the one the book/teachers/preachers are just talking about, Christ himself, and so they go to and find Him.
Tammy
AGuest

I think I am afraid I might have put on 4 or 5 lbs.
It's all those "empty" calories, dear one. You know, from the spirits you're ingesting to ward off your boredom... and personal chagrin. You should try cooking with... rather than soley drinking... it.
But, okay, I've made my point so many times I simply cannot count any more. We don't agree. You believe God and/or Christ to be... well, I won't repeat your words - no point. Believe what you will about them... and me. Because for a certain, they're not sitting around going "Oh, woe, is me/us - NVL doesn't think highly of me/us"... and certainly neither am I. If my life turned on what you believe... about me... about what I believe... about how I communicate what I believe... well, let's just say I would have wanted to slit my wrists and end it all 6 months ago. Praise JAH, my Lord is not one who endeavors to strain out not only gnats... but even no'see'ems and other sundry mites... while gulping down all manner of dromedaries and water buffalo...
Note, you really make more sense when your glass is empty. Not real sense, mind you, but more than when your glass isn't empty (or should I say you make even less when it's full - ). And, yeah, I can tell: 'cause you just be talkin'... to just be talkin'... and really saying nothing at all except, "I'm really bored out of my gourd and really don't have anything to do, not really, but there's no way in hell I'll let her/them know that..."
But feel free to come on with your next "spiritual" rant. Just keep in mind that you will be talking to yourself. Because I truly am done here. We're now 20 pages out, with over 5200 views. What, I have to ask, for gawd's sakes for? Not enough here to justify that, IMHO.
So, peace to you, dear NVL... and si-ya-nara!
A slave of Christ,
SA
P.S. My Lord does indeed help "his children." However, calling the Holy One of Israel derogatory names while in a "fit" of.... well, you know what kind of fit you're in... isn't going to get you the result you're looking for. It DOES, however, dance all over the Adversary's challenge regarding YOU: that you WOULD curse God. I must kindly... and lovingly warn you, dear NVL... that although YOU might believe yourself to be "rightly hot with anger," sin IS crouching at your door... and for you IS it's longing. So, please, get the mastery over you anger. Because if you don't, your anger WILL get the mastery over YOU... and you WILL sin... irrevocably... as a result. Please... if you truly want an answer, if you TRULY wish to hear... put away your anger... and simply ask... and then LISTEN. Because that's all Israel ever had to do, anyway.
notverylikely

It's all those "empty" calories, dear one. You know, from the spirits you're ingesting to ward off your boredom... and personal chagrin. You should try cooking with... rather than soley drinking... it.
Hot damn!. Congratulations, Shelby (and peace to you). You almost got something right about me. They are empty calories. But it's not to fight off boredom, it's more that it's football season and instead of working out every day, it's an all day Sunday football event, going to a college game on Saturday, staying up late to watch MNF and the occassional Thursday night game. It's not chagrin or boredom. It's not even all empty calories. And, since your Lord didn't see fit to tell you, I often cook with alcohol.
You really shouldn't assume.
But, okay, I've made my point so many times I simply cannot count any more.
Your points change as often as the direction of the wind. The only consistent point you make is "Everything else is wrong about Jesus, he talks to me, I can use the Bible, you can't".
Because for a certain, they're not sitting around going "Oh, woe, is me/us - NVL doesn't think highly of me/us"... and certainly neither am I. If my life turned on what you believe... about me... about what I believe... about how I communicate what I believe... well, let's just say I would have wanted to slit my wrists and end it all 6 months ago.
Huh? I don't recall any of that ever entering the conversation, but I am glad you are't about to off yourself.
And, yeah, I can tell: 'cause you just be talkin'... to just be talkin'... and really saying nothing at all except, "I'm really bored out of my gourd and really don't have anything to do, not really, but there's no way in hell I'll let her/them know that..."
Since you have yet to be right about a single thing about be, the subtle accusations of being a rambling acoholic, while ignorant, offensive and a sign of person with no other recouse except to disparage the character of the person she is debating, are nonetheless amusing. I am sure Jesus loves it when you do that. That must be you attempting to use that Zorro like wit you have, except it seems rusty and a bit hamfisted.
But feel free to come on with your next "spiritual" rant. Just keep in mind that you will be talking to yourself. Because I truly am done here.
Jesus loves a quitter.
My Lord does indeed help "his children." However, calling the Holy One of Israel derogatory names while in a "fit" of.... well, you know what kind of fit you're in... isn't going to get you the result you're looking for. It DOES, however, dance all over the Adversary's challenge regarding YOU: that you WOULD curse God.
Please demonstrate where I have cursed God. You love to throw these things out there and then never back them up.
I must kindly... and lovingly warn you, dear NVL... that although YOU might believe yourself to be "rightly hot with anger," sin IS crouching at your door... and for you IS it's longing. So, please, get the mastery over you anger. Because if you don't, your anger WILL get the mastery over YOU... and you WILL sin... irrevocably... as a result.
Oh my dear, we are all undeserving sinners. Since crouches at all our doors. And once again, you misread me and get it wrong. I am in no way angry at God, Jesus, Satan, you...anyone. It says more about you that you presume it to be anger than it does about me.
SixofNine

Quote:
"While I know you weren't addressing me with this statement, dear CD (peace to you!), since you are referring to me I fee that I must respond beause I make and have made no such claim. The Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, speaks through His Son, the Holy One of Israel, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, who is the Holy Spirit. If we're to ever make such a claim, that God speaks through me... I would be no different than those who "seat themselves in the seat of Moses." God has a spokesperson: His Word, Christ.
Now, Christ, speaks to me, yes... and I am not alone... but it certainly is NOT because I am "special." It is ONLY because I exercise faith and LISTEN... when he does. He speaks to EVERYONE, however, including you. "
You've often stated, including a time or two on this very thread, that your lord is instructing you to pass on his words directly to the JWD forum.
I applaud NVL's patience with you. After this thread, and especially after your reply to PSac above, even tec and PSac know.

The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

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