Who Wrote the Book of Revelation, and when? (page 3)

hamsterbait

All of this debating over words just PROVES that none of you have the TRUTH

I am going back to the meetings.

HB

ProdigalSon

For your reading pleasure, written by the Sibyl of Cumea, circa the 6th century BC....

http://www.scribd.com/doc/37985322/The-Sibylline-Revelation-Ms

Here is the rediscovered sacred Sibylline book, in a version closely following the Fickler/Johansson translation of the Habsburg library’s Old Slavonic text, but put into contemporary language and layout, and with Roman copyists’ gender distortions corrected, so as to restore the conceptual integrity of the original work. Thus, for example, ‘brotherhood’ is rendered as ‘community’, ‘the Mother of All’ replaces ‘the Son of Man’, so as to return to Isis Her rightful place, and the Sibyl herself is addressed as ‘Woman’, rather than ‘Man’.

The complete work, without alteration, additions or deletions, exactly as it is here, including the introduction and footnotes, may be copied, forwarded, and shared, for the benefit of all.

The Mysteries of Isis and Osiris .

1:7 Behold, the Spirit of the Air shall bring Her, and every eye shall see Her. The Community, all the vast Community of the living, shall raise their voices as one, and sing, because of Her. Even so, Amen.

1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, which was, and is, and shall be.”

1:12 A voice spoke, and I turned to see who it was that spoke to me.

Turning, I saw seven golden candles, and, in the midst of their blazing light, one who seemed to be the Mother of All, clothed in white, white as snow. Her voice filled the air with the sound of rushing water, and in Her hands were seven stars, full of the flaming light of the heavens from whence they came. She spoke, Her face streaming light, blazing and golden, like a thousand suns.

1:17 She said, “Have no fear. I am the first, and the last. I am the beginning, and the end.

1:19 Write the things which you have seen, Seven lamps burned before the throne, the fire of our mother, the Earth, Seven stars shone before the throne, the fire of our father, the Sun.

The things which are,which are yet to be, the mystery of the seven stars which fill My hands, and the seven golden candles, blazing with eternal light.

The seven stars are the Spirits of your father, the Sun, and the seven candles are the Spirits of your mother, the Earth. The Spirit of humanity is a flame, streaming between starlight and glowing candle, a bridge of holy light, shining between the heavens and the Earth.”

1:20 She who said these things holds the seven stars in Her hands. She walks in the midst of the flames of seven golden candles. Those who have ears to hear, let them hear the words of Mother Isis. “To whoever overcomes, I will give to eat of the Tree of Life, that stands in the midst of the shining paradise of Eternity.”

4:1 Then I looked, and behold, a door was opened in the heavens, and a voice which sounded from all sides, like a trumpet, spoke to me, “Come up here, and I will show you what must be, in the future.”

Immediately I was there, in spirit, at the threshold of an open door. I entered through the open door, into a sea of blazing light. In the midst of that blinding ocean of radiance was a throne, on which sat one whose face was hidden, and there was a rainbow about that emerald-like throne.

Around the throne were thirteen seats, and upon these seats I saw thirteen elders sitting, clothed in white, their faces hidden by swirling clouds of light. Seven lamps burned before the throne, the fire of our mother, the Earth, Seven stars shone before the throne, the fire of our father, the Sun. Before the throne was a sea of glass-like crystal, and reflected in it were all the mountains, and valleys and oceans of the Earth, and all the creatures living there.

The thirteen elders bowed down before the splendour of the one who sat on the throne, whose face was hidden.

Rivers of light streamed from their hands, one to the other, as they cried, ‘Holy, Holy, Holy, Mother of all Glory, Who was, and is, and is to come.

You are worthy, O Great One, of glory, honour and power, for You created all that is.’

5:1 Then I saw, in the right hand of the one who sat on the throne, whose face was hidden, a book, written within, and sealed with seven seals. I saw a Spirit, who was proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book, to loose its seals?”

5:3 No-one in Heaven, on the Earth, or under the Earth was able to open the book, or even to look upon it. I wept, because the book could not be opened, and I could not read what was written there. One of the elders said to me, “ Do not weep. Reach out your hand, and take the book, yes, this very book with seven seals. Open it, for it was written for you, at once the lowest of the low, and the highest of the high.” I reached out my hand, touching the book.

Behold ! The cover was lifted, my hands touched the golden pages, my eyes beheld the mystery of the seven seals. I heard the voices of many Spirits round about the throne, ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands upon thousands, singing with a loud voice, “All glory, and wisdom, and strength and power, for ever and ever, be to the one who shall reveal the Mystery of Mysteries.”

I saw swirling clouds of golden light, stretching like a fiery bridge between my hands, the hands of the thirteen elders, and the feet of the one who sat on the throne, whose face was hidden.

I opened the first seal, and beheld the Spirit of the Air. Between her lips flowed the breath of life. She bowed over the Earth, and gave to man the inspiration of Wisdom. Man breathed in. When he breathed out, the sky darkened, the sweet air became foul and fetid, and clouds of evil smoke hung low over all the Earth. I turned my face away in shame.

6:3 I opened the second seal, and beheld the Spirit of Water. Between her lips flowed the water of life. She bowed over the Earth, and gave to man an ocean of Love. Man entered the clear and shining waters. When he touched the water, the clear streams darkened, the crystal waters became thick with slime, the fish lay gasping in the foul blackness, and all creatures died of thirst. I turned my face away in shame.

6:5 I opened the third seal, and beheld the Spirit of Fire. Between her lips flowed the light of life. She bowed over the Earth, and gave to man the fires of Power. The strength of the Sun entered into the heart of man. He took the power, and made with it a false sun.

He spread abroad the fires of destruction, burning the forests, laying waste the green valleys, leaving only the charred bones of his brothers. I turned my face away in shame.

6:7 I opened the fourth seal, and beheld the Spirit of Joy. Between her lips flowed the music of life. Bowing over the Earth, She gave to man the song of Peace, and peace and joy, like music, flowed through the soul of man.

He heard nothing but the harsh discord of sadness and discontent. He lifted his sword, and cut off the hands of the peacemakers, lifted it once again, and cut off the heads of the singers. I turned my face away in shame.

6:9 I opened the fifth seal, and beheld the Spirit of Life. Between her lips flowed the covenent between all that lives and humanity. She bowed over the Earth and gave to man the gift of Creation. Man created a venomous sickle of cold iron, and the harvest he reaped was hunger, and death. I turned my face away in shame.

6:12 I opened the sixth seal, and beheld the Spirit of Nature. Between her lips flowed the river of eternal life. She bowed over the Earth, and gave to man the secret of Eternity. She told him to open his eyes, and behold the mystic Tree of Life, growing forever in the Eternal Sea. But man lifted his hand, put out his own eyes, and said there was no eternity. I turned my face away in shame.

8:1 I opened the seventh seal, and beheld the Spirit of Mother Earth, She brought with Her a message of blazing light from the throne of the Mother of Heaven, a message for the ears of man alone, who walks between Earth and Heaven. The message was whispered into the ear of man. He would not hear. But I did not turn away my face in shame. I reached out my hand to the wings of the Spirit, and I turned my voice to the heavens, saying, “Tell me the message. I would eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life that grows in the Sea of Eternity.” The Spirit looked upon me with great sadness.

There was silence in Heaven. Then I heard a voice, the voice which sounded like a trumpet, saying, “Woman, would you look upon the evil your kind have committed, when you turned your faces away from the throne of the Almighty, making no use of the gifts of the seven Spirits of your mother, the Earth, and the seven Spirits of your father, the Sun?”

A terrible pain seized me, as I felt within me the souls of all those who had blinded themselves, so as to see only their own desires of the flesh. I saw the seven Spirits who stood before the throne, and to them were given seven trumpets. A Spirit came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer.

8:4 Much incense was given to him, to be offered up, with the prayers of all the Spirits, upon the golden altar which was before the throne. The smoke of incense rose up before the throne, out of the Spirit’s hand. The Spirit took the censer, filled it with the fire of the altar, and cast it into the Earth. There was noise and thunder, lightning and earthquakes.

8:6 The seven Spirits, holding the seven trumpets, prepared themselves to sound.

8:7 The first Spirit sounded, and there followed a hail of ice and fire, mixed with blood. The forests and trees were burnt up, and all green grass shrivelled to cinders.

8:8 The second Spirit sounded, and, as it were, a great mountain, burning with fire, was cast into the sea. Blood rose from the Earth as a vapour.

8:10 The third Spirit sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning as if it were a lamp. It fell upon the rivers and fountains, turning them to bitter poison.

8:12 The fourth Spirit sounded, and there was a great earthquake. The Sun turned black, a sackcloth of hair, and the Moon became as blood.

9:1 The fifth Spirit sounded, and the stars of heaven fell to earth, even as a fig tree casts her unripe figs, when shaken by a mighty wind.

9:13 The sixth Spirit sounded -the heavens departed like a rolled up scroll. Over the whole Earth there was not one tree, one flower, one blade of grass. I stood on the Earth, and my feet sank into the soil,

soft and thick with blood, stretching as far as the eye could see. Over all the Earth was silence.

10:1 The seventh Spirit sounded, and I saw a mighty being come down from the heavens, clothed with a cloud. A rainbow was upon his head, his face was like the sun, his feet pillars of fire. In his hand was an open book. He set his right foot upon the sea, and he set his left foot on the earth, crying with a loud voice, wonderous to hear, “Woman, would you have this vision come to pass ?” I answered, “You know, O Holy One, that I would do anything that these terrible things might not happen.” He spoke, “Man has created these powers of destruction. He has brought them into being from his own mind. He has turned his face away from the Spirits of his Father Sun and his Mother Earth -he has fashioned his own destruction.” I asked, “Then is there no hope, bright Spirit ?” A blazing light streamed like a river from his hands, as he answered, “There is always hope, O you for whom Heaven and Earth were created,”

10:5 The Spirit, standing on the sea and on the earth, lifted up his hand to the heavens. He swore by the One who lives for ever, who created the Heavens, all that is in them, the Earth, all within her, the sea, and all it contains, that there should be time no longer, but that, in the days of the voice of the seventh Spirit, when he shall begin to sound, the Mystery of absolute unity should be revealed to those who have eaten of the Tree of Life, which stands forever, in the Eternal Sea.

The voice spoke again, saying, “Go, take the book, which is open in the hands of the Spirit who stands on the sea and on the earth.” I went to the Spirit, and said to him, “Give me the book, for I would eat of the fruit of the Tree of Life, which stands forever at the centre of the Eternal Sea.” The Spirit gave me the book. I opened the book, and read in it what had already been, what was present, and what would come to pass. I saw the holocaust which would engulf the Earth, and the great destruction which would drown all her people in oceans of blood. I saw too the eternity of humanity, and the endless forgiveness of the Almighty.

The souls of men were as blank pages in the book, always ready for a new song to be inscribed there.

I lifted my face to the seven Spirits of the Earth, and to the seven Spirits of the Sun, and I offered up a prayer of thanksgiving, “ I thank you, O Mother Earth, because you have put me at the source of running streams, as a living spring in a land of drought, watering an eternal garden of wonders, the Tree of Life, the mystery of mysteries, growing everlasting branches, for eternal planting, to sink their roots into the stream of life that flows from an eternal source. I thank you, Father Sun, for protecting the fruits with the Spirits of the day and of the night, and with the flames of Eternal Light, burning in all directions.”

But again the voice spoke, and again my eyes were drawn away from the splendours of the realm of light. “ Woman, you may step on the right path, walking in the presence of the Spirits. You may sing of your Mother Earth by day, and of your Father Sun by night, while through your being may course the golden stream of the Way. But would you leave your brothers to plunge through gaping chasms of blood, as the pain-wracked Earth shudders and groans, in chains of stone ?

Can you drink the cup of eternal life, while your brothers die of thirst ?” My heart was heavy with compassion. I looked, and behold, a great wonder appeared in Heaven -

12:1 A Woman clothed with the Sun, with the Moon under Her feet, upon Her head a crown of seven stars. I knew She was the source of running streams, the Mother of the Forests.

13:1 I stood upon the sea sand, and saw a beast rise out of the sea. From his nostrils rose a foul and loathsome air, where he rose from the sea the waters turned to slime, and his body was covered in black and steaming stone. The Woman clothed with the Sun reached out Her arms to the beast, and the beast drew near and embraced Her. Behold, Her skinof pearl withered beneath his foul breath, and Her back was broken by his arms of crushing rock. With tears of blood, She sank into the pool of slime. From the mouth of the beast poured armies of men, brandishing weapons, fighting with one another. They fought with terrible anger, cutting off their own limbs, clawing out their eyes, falling into the slime, screaming in agony and fear. I stepped to the edge of the pool, and reached down my hand. I could see the swirling maelstrom of blood, and the men in it, trapped like flies in a web. I spoke with a loud voice, saying, “Brothers, drop your swords - take hold of my hand.

Leave off this defiling desecration of She who has given you birth, and He who has given you your inheritance. Your days of buying and selling are over, and over, too, are your days of hunting and killing.

13:10 He that leads into captivity shall go into captivity, and he that kills with the sword must die by the sword. The merchants of the Earth shall weep and mourn, for no-one will buy their merchandise any more -
the merchants of gold, silver, precious stones, and pearls and fine linen, and purple, and silk, scarlet, and marble, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and the souls of men… All these things you can no longer buy and sell, for all is buried in a sea of blood, because you have turned your back on your Father and your Mother.

You have worshipped the beast who would build a paradise of stone. Drop your swords, my brothers, and take hold of my hand”.

14:1 As our fingers clasped, I saw in the distance a great city, white and shining on the far horizon, glowing like alabaster. There were voices, thunder, lightning, and a great earthquake, such as there has not been since men were upon Earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so terrible. The great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. The great city came in remembrance before the throne,

to be given the cup of the wine of the fierceness of wrath. Every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. There fell upon men a great hail out of the heavens, every stone about the weight of a gold talent.

A mighty Spirit took up a stone, like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, “Thus, with violence, shall the great city be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. The voice of harps, and musicians, and pipers, and of singers and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in you. No craftsman, whatever his craft, shall be found any more in you. The sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in you. The light of a candle shall shine no more in you. The voice of the bridegroom and the bride shall be heard no more at all in you. For your merchants were the great men of the Earth. By your sorceries all men were deceived. In you was found the blood of prophets, saints, and of all who were slain upon the Earth.”

My brothers laid hold of my hand, struggled out of the slimy pit, and stood, bewildered, on the sand. The skies opened, washing their naked bodies with rain. I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder. I heard the music of a great many harps, singing, as it were, a new song before the throne.

14:6 I saw a Spirit flying in heaven, having songs of day and night, the everlasting teaching to preach to them that dwell on the Earth, until they climb from the pit of slime, and stand, naked, and washed by the rain, before the throne. The Spirit cried, “Fear the Almighty, and give glory to the Absolute, for the hour of judgement is come. Worship the Mother of the heavens and the earth, the sea, and the fountains of the waters”.

19:11 I saw the heavens open, and beheld a white horse. He that rode him is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns. He was cloaked in blazing light, and his feet were bare. His name is the Word of Truth. The Holy Community followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. They entered the EternalGarden,

in whose midst is the Tree of Life.

The rain-washed, naked throngs came before them, trembling, to receive their judgement. Their sins were many, for they had defiled the Earth, destroyed the creatures of land and sea, poisoned the ground, fouled the waters and the air, and buried alive the mother who had given them birth. But I did not see what befell them, for my vision changed.

21:1 I saw a new Heaven, and a new Earth, for the first Heaven and the first Earth were passed away. I saw the Holy House of the Community of Life coming down, out ofthe Heavens, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, “Lo, the mountain of your Father is established above allmountains, and the house of your Mother is exalted above the hills. All people shall flow into it. Come, let us go up the mountain, and to the house of your Mother. You shall walk in his paths, she shall teach you of her ways. The Way shall go forth, out of the Holy Congregation. Behold, Heaven’s House is here with you. He himself shall dwell with you, and you shall be his people. She herself shall be with you, and you shall be her children. She shall wipe away all tears from your eyes. There shall be no more fear of death, neither sorrow nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away.

Those who made war shall beat their swords into ploughshares, their spears into pruning hooks. Nationshall not lift up sword against nation, nor shall they learn war anymore, for the former things
are passed away.”

22:13 The voice spoke again, “Behold, I make all things new. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give freely to the one who is athirst, of the fountain of the water of life. Whoever overcomes shall inherit all things- I shall be your parent, and you My child. But the fearful and unbelieving, the abominable, murderers and liars, shall dig their own pit, burning with fire and brimstone.”

ProdigalSon

bttt

ProdigalSon

bttt

skeeter1

Whoever wrote Revelations, was smoking something that shouldn't be legal or was an absolute lunatic. To say that God inspired it is absolutely ridiculous to me. It's too hard to understand. If something is important, really important, He would have written it in plain language. Not some super crazy dream that needed interpreted or could be interpreted a million different ways. It's all made up, whoever wrote it. If there is a God Jehovah, He wouldn't have written such garbage.

Leolaia

You really have a knack of finding dubious sources. First the reference to Tony Bushby on the first page, and now the text above attributed to the Sibyl which is clearly paraphrase of Revelation. This text is unknown to scholarship, which would have would have definitely been published among the Sibylline pseudepigrapha (see the collection in the Charlesworth edition of the OT Pseudepigrapha), or at least have been commented in the relevant literature. This is especially suspicious since the link mentions TWO versions of the same text, one in Old Church in Slavonic translated by "Karl Fickler" and "Burgie Johansson", names that only appear online in similar references to this dubious text. There should be lots of information about the manuscripts in the literature, if such manuscripts existed. Do "Karl Ficker" and "Burgie Johansson" exist? Then I noticed that the Scribd document states that the OTHER version of the text was "discovered" by Edmond Szekely, which imo makes it a certitude that no such manuscript exists.

On other "discoveries" made by Szekely: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/experiences/171499/1/Essene-Gospel-of-Peace-E-Szekely

There are lots of faked "ancient documents" on the internet. Check to see if they are properly sourced and published. I see further that footnote 12 makes particular reference to Tony Bushby, which leads me to believe that this whole thing is a figment of his overactive imagination.

Band on the Run

I've read a bit in this area from a wide variety of sources. In fact, I started my quest for more accurate Biblical info with a 1,000 page treatise on Revelation. I've always heard from academics what Leoila reports. My professor would die from shock if she heard about the oracle.

Perhaps one of the reasons Revelation is still around is that different people can access different items. I studied with Elaine Pagels, whose is quite a Gnostic scholar. She never equated Revelation with Gnosticism. I do recall conversations about the opening poem in John. It has been years but if I recall correctly, there is no evidence that John actually wrote John. He would have to ancient beyond years to have written Revolution.

Personally, I sometimes wonder if I get to far from what is important getting passionate about academic subjects. I do, personally. Many people have taken me to task for being over-intellectual. It is said as though it were the slimiest thing. I imagine Revelation has to be one of the more controversial books ever. Frankly, I am appalled by all the grocery market books that proclaim scholarship. Bible history is a massive commercial market. I have only an amateur's interest b/c of the Witnesses. Many times I buy popular books, read them, and become incensed b/c I do better and I know not much.

No one here is grading school projects. I can't imagine Christ wanted everyone poured over academic texts. Scholarship freed me from the Witnesses. Strangely, I did not even know people could read the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book until a college course. The Bible can be understood on so many levels.

I refuse to be New Age or fundamentalist. People may try to describe it that way but I will not accept it. The discussion triggered something in me. I respect my New Age friends. I do not think they are wrong. My approach is different, however. I've had people roll their eyes, prepare to explode, etc. at my mention of academic religious history courses, such as at Berkeley, Harvard, Chicago, Oxford. In fact, I just finished Marcus Borg and N.T. Wright's, The Meaning of Jesus, both academic scholars and active Christians, they agree almost 100% factually but come to different conclusions based on the facts.

This is only a forum, not an arena for determing ultimate reality. Sorry if I am out of line.

Joey Jo-Jo

Could it be that the book of revelations was simply written in apocrypha like a coded language at the time so the romans would not understand its content? Bart Ehrmans argument was that regarding the number of the beast 666, at the time numerology was common and that this number gives the word neron ceasar or nron ksr in aramaic. So would it be more correct to say that this book is not of revelations to come but of that time as a anti-roman literature?

ProdigalSon

Leolaia: You really have a knack of finding dubious sources. First the reference to Tony Bushby on the first page, and now the text above attributed to the Sibyl which is clearly paraphrase of Revelation.

Did Bushby make up the part about the Sibyl of Cumae's prominence on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sibyl

I appreciate the scholarly advice, but the book of Revelation came from a divine source and was corrupted by the Roman Catholic Church to be used for their own nefarious agenda. It is an esoteric treatise on Kabbalah and Alchemy, to be used in conjunction with meditation for people who wish to "ascend". It doesn't matter one bit to me WHO channeled it. The Church had a knack for stealing esoteric work and tweaking it just so to be taken literally by the cattle.

We've established fairly well on this forum that the New Testament was compiled by the Catholic Church. This whole story fits in with their MO to a friggn' tee... and Michelangelo, a high initiate, seals the deal.

There's a whole online study course here for anyone interested in serious spirituality instead of religious dogma and doctrines....

http://gnosticteachings.org/courses/book-of-revelation.html

Who Wrote the Book of Revelation, and when?

hamsterbait

PSacramento

ProdigalSon

ProdigalSon

ProdigalSon

skeeter1

Leolaia

Band on the Run

Joey Jo-Jo

ProdigalSon

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