by bigmac 19 Replies latest jw friends
The actual number only once, thought the people are refrences a couple of times after that.
In the OT there are also instances of a number of people being called out from the tribes of Isarael, typiclaly to do battle.
And no, Jesus never spoke of any number or anything like that, in the NT the ONLY mention is in Revelation.
in a book of mystical fantasy written by a very old man
I totally understand that much of the western culture has a large disdain for the elderly, dear bigmac (again, peace to you!), most probably due to the prevalence of senility and diseases like alzheimer's... not to mention the "worship" of youth. But some very old folk managed to stay not only lucid, but quite wise. There are many I could reference but two that come to mind are Sadie and Bessie Delaney... both of whom were quite lucid well into their 100's.
i would have thought this 144,000 would have been a key feature of christianity, but am i right in thinking it's not mentioned in the gospels?
It isn't a key feature for anyone but Abraham's seed, fleshly Israel.
did Jesus refer to it ?
Not the specific number, no. But, implicitly, yes. He called some of them (24,000 - 12,000 each from Judah and Benjamin) the "little flock."
What about Paul, in all his writings ?
Same as above. They are the "holy ones" that he often referred to when opening his (?) letters to the congregations round about...
the bride of christ is comprised of 144,000 virgin men
Actually, that's not accurate. Since you are "almost interested," I will explain here. You can choose to continue or not - the choice is entirely yours.
The Bride of Christ is composed of 144,000 from among the sons of Israel... AND a great crowd which no man was able to number, out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people... including the REST of Israel who are not of the "sealed" group (because ALL Israel will be saved - it's just that the nations must come in FIRST... due to their overall rejection of Christ. Once the FULL number of the nations have come in, then the Most Holy One of Israel will again turn His attention to Israel).
The reason that there is the limited number is because God made a promise to Abraham as to his (Abraham's) seed through Isaac. The Nation of Israel (i.e., the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel... or "Israel"... and the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah/Benjamin... or the "Jews") was chosen as a special nation due to ABRAHAM'S loyalty to and friendship with the Most Holy One [of Israel]. Any other nation could have been chosen had their patriarch stood up and showed himself loyal and a man of faith. Abraham was this man. So, as a reward, his seed was constituted a nation to God, "a people for a special possession." So, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the people of Israel, themselves. Which is why their rebellion shouldn't be too surprising - they weren't like their forefather, Abraham - rather, they were hard-headed, hard-hearted, and stiff-necked.
Abraham... and his son, Isaac... and HIS son, Jacob (aka Israel, and father to the nation of 12 tribes)... all had the Law written on their hearts. All but two of Israel's sons, however, Joseph and Benjamin (Jacob's "true" sons by his "true" wife, Rachel, the woman he loved... vs. his others sons by women he had to marry and have children with before he even GET Rachel)... also had the Law on their hearts. Unfortunately, their older brothers didn't... nor did their sons or the sons of these brothers. So that when God heard their outcry while in Egypt and under the oppression of a Pharaoh that did NOT know the True God, JAH of Armies (although his predecessors did)... and led them OUT of Egypt, instead of being grateful, Israel rebelled. They began complaining and murmuring and treating one another badly. So, God put the Law on stone tablets and made a Covenant with them that if they listened to HIM and followed the Laws HE gave them... He would be their God and prosper them as well as protect them from their enemies.
But that didn't make any difference, either. Rather than look to the Law as something to help know what not to do AGAINST their brother, they looked to it as a means to point the finger and judge their brother... and withhold mercy. In very many ways they transgressed that Law, primiarly in their failure to exercise justice, mercy, and faith. Eventually, they altogether rejected the Most Holy One as their Leader... because they wanted to be like the nations around them... which nations had humans as their leaders and kings. So, the Most Holy One of Israel gave them what they asked for... and they have been oppressed and dominated ever since. By Babylon, by Greece, by Rome, by England, by Germany.... and now look where they are. From time to time they would cry out and the Most Holy One of Israel would feel regret and return His favor to be upon them. But they kept rebelling... NOT against Him so much as in how they treated one another, particularly those who had less... who were poor, widowed, orphaned, strangers, hungry, sick, homeless, etc.
Because of their rejection of Him and by their treatment of their fellowman, His Covenant with them, the Most Holy One of Israel turned His attention away from them AND His Covenant with them... and began plans for a NEW Covenant... one which was NOT exclusive to Israel (and those who literally attached themselves to Israel)... but one that would include ANYONE who exercised faith in Him and followed His Laws. Then He sent His Son to MANIFEST those Laws... by stating them and living them. Unfortunately, Israel rejected this messenger... indeed, even the Son of God... because they had gotten that haughty. They had learned absolutely NOTHING from their previous rebellions, which resulted in their being captured and enslaved by their enemies. During those times, they would beg and plead... but once released they would go right back to their haughty self-perceptions because they were "Abraham's seed," and thus "the chosen of JAH".
They took that rebellion to its highest height, however, when they (particularly those of the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah, the "Jews", but certainly some of the 10-tribe kingdom, Israel, as well)... called for the murder of the very One who was sent to save them and set them free from the evil and hypocritical oppression of the scribes, Pharisees, corrupt priests, and false prophets... those who were using "the Law" to mislead their fellowman. Those who had corrupted and tainted the Law with their OWN traditions, teachings, requirements, and burdens. That One was the One sent to (1) clarify the TRUTH about what the Law stated and required, (2) manifest the TRUTH about the Most Holy One of Israel (whom Israel had overwhelming SLANDERED by means of their traditions, false teachings, etc.)... (3) establish the NEW Covenant... of which Israel could be a part, just like anyone else... and (4) give his life... and blood... so that anyone... ANYONE... Israel OR the nations... who put faith in HIM... who listen to HIM... could be in a Covenant with the True God.
But... they rebelled against that One, too, and, again, not only allowed him to be murdered, but helped it come to fruition. They NEVER called the hypocritical scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees, priests, false prophets, etc., to task. Rather, they let these fabricate false stories (that many of the people KNEW were lies)... and then, to add insult to injury... when they COULD have called for his release... called for another man, a criminal, to be released instead.
And so, the Most Holy of Israel turned His attention to the nations... to take out THEM... a people "for His name." And such people come out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people... and constitute the TRUE "Israel" and thus, the Bride of Christ.
The 144,000 are "sealed"... so that God's promise to ABRAHAM... is not forgotten. It is sealed... guaranteed. These are "virgins" NOT because they are men... but because they didn't "defile themselves with women." The "women" spoken of are not literal women, but are the "harlots"... the "daughters" of Babylon the Great, the "mother of the harlots." And THESE [harlots]... are the religions that come out of the fornication between Babylon the Great and the kings of the earth. Babylon the Great is NOT the "world empire of false religion." Rather, she is the group of those people who have been anointed with holy spirit, so as to be "in union" with Christ... but rather than remaining TRUE to that union... rather than continue to follow him and listen to HIS law as their husbandly owner... listen to and follow another "man." She is a fornicator and infidel... yet, she still considers herself to be [a] queen... to Christ's kingship.
And her daughters... the so-called "christian" religions that have resulted from her fornication... fornicate as well... just as she has taught them to do.
The 144,000 are "virgins", however... because they are those of Israel who have not defiled themselves with such "women"... such "harlots"... but have remained true to their husbandly owner, Christ, The Bridegroom.
These "sing as if/like a NEW" song... because is it NO LONGER the "song" of the OLD Covenant, but of the NEW. Yet, it is the "song" Israel was supposed to be "singing" all along. And these alone "master" that song... because they truly are Abraham's seed. The others (great crowd) "sing" it to, but not like these, Abraham's seed. It is not a literal song, however, but praise to JAH. Because they have been given this great gift... in spite of Israel's track record, these master such praise, more than any others.
I hope this helps, dear one, and, again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
The actual number only once,
You are confusing me, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you!). Am I counting incorrectly? For example:
1. "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel." Revelation 7:4 (NIV)
2. "Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads." Revelation 14:1 (NIV)
3. "And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth." Revelation 14:3 (NIV)
Am I missing something?
As always, peace to you!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
The next time you meet one of the "anointed" (if you ever do), ask them which tribe they are from and how they know.
Somehow the WTS has taken these three references and with no textual justification linked them to Jesus' one "little flock" comment in Luke 12.
From that, they have constructed a two-class system by which hardly any Christians are going to heaven to be with Christ (never mind John 14:1-3, Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:16-18; 5:10; 2 Tim. 2:11; Rev. 17:14).
They convince people that the NT doesn't directly apply to anyone but this tiny group of 144,000.
All this from 3 verses which say nothing of the kind.
I learned as a JW:
The easiest way to remember where the 144,000 is in Revelation is to look at the number and break down it down to a verse.
144,000 can break down to 14:4. Yup, if you turn there, you'll see it in Revelation 14:1-4. Then remember a place where it is there half as often. Take half of Revelation 14:4 and you will find it right after Revelation 7:2.
You still have to open your Bible to see the exact location, but when you are showing up some householder that the number is there and important, you can do this in one swift motion.
Mentioned 3 times in one book of the Bible and 2,047 times in the 2007 WT Library.
Leolaia,
Dare I ask about the number of appearances of the word "organization"?
Bible: 0
WT library (any year): ?
16,832
You are confusing me, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you!). Am I counting incorrectly?
LOL ! No Shelby, no, I did a typo in that post and when I edited it I removed what I wanted to say which who and what the actual number is comprised of ( 10K from the 12 tribes) is mentioned only once.
Ahhh, yes, dear PSacto (the greatest of love and peace to you!). Got it, thanks!
Peace!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
