The Problem of Evil --- The Dilemma

by LoneWolf 19 Replies latest jw friends

LoneWolf

Hi, Folks
gravedancer has invited us to a discussion of a subject upon which rests the credibility of all faith. I'm responding by posting a 3 part series reflecting some of the research and thought the I've put into it for some decades now.
As I said to him on his thread "Freewill - a Paradox", at
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=19809&page=2&site=3
. . . I’d like your input on something. I’ve done a considerable amount of research and pondering on this whole matter and have come up with a few answers for some of the questions contained on this thread. You will note that I did not say they were the answers. They are merely possible answers that are still incomplete and in desperate need of a great deal more work and input. I would deeply appreciate your input and that of any others who wish to contribute.

I’m posting it under the heading “The Problem of Evil” in three episodes: “The Dilemma”, “The Plot”, and “The Answer”. As a bare minimum I think it will give you something to think about.
I hope everyone feels free to jump in.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL
THE DILEMMA
Is Genesis a Myth?
The thought that an all-powerful, righteous, and loving creator could co-exist with an evil diabolical resister boggles most people's minds.
a. If God is righteous, then he must hate evil.

b. If he hates evil, then it would stand to reason that he would use his power to end it.
c. If he does not end it, then he must desire it's continued existence and must share responsibility for what that evil does.

Theories abound as to what may have happened.
1. Perhaps Jehovah is not as powerful as he claims to be.
2. Perhaps he made a mistake and wants to start over in his creating of mankind.

3. Perhaps he's actually in partnership with Satan and the two of them divide mankind up between them. God gets the good, and Satan gets the bad.
4. Perhaps Jehovah keeps Satan around as a 'sub-contractor', using him to make humankind miserable in order to "refine" them and make them worthy of being "saved".

Such trains of thought have destroyed the faith of millions. Atheism and its political manifestation, communism, could not exist without them. And all, though they are legitimate questions that need answering, are wrong.
The Goal: To come up with an answer that is logical. We, of course, cannot claim to be privy to the entire truth. (absolute truth) However, for the purpose of this argument, that is unnecessary. For us as humans to find any solution at all that is logical will make the solution possible. That in turn will help to remove the entire concept from the realm of fantasy as it exists today in many minds.
Where to Start
Let's start with two postulates: There is a God/Creator/Original Cause, and there is an opposer. We do this for two reasons:
1. If there is no creator or opposer, there is no question.
2. Most "higher authorities" have relegated both to the realm of fantasy. Yet the existence of both is central to the credibility of nearly all faith.
Already, just on the information above, we can make a couple of estimates as to what we could expect of such a challenge.
a. Due to the fact that both Jehovah and his adversary, Satan, are far more intelligent than we are, we can assume the "plot" was rather sophisticated. After all, Satan was trying to assail the unassailable. This would be re-enforced by . . .
b. Inasmuch as Jehovah is omnipotent and Satan is not, Satan must include a provision in that "plot" to prevent God from using his power to settle the matter immediately, or for that matter, at all. To assume other than that is to assume he was suicidal.
The First Hurdle
This brings us to the first door that stops most people. God is also omniscient, or all knowing. If he knew what was going to happen and did not take steps to forestall it, then even according to our laws he would appear to be an accessory after the fact. He would also look to be hypocritical in condemning it. That doesn't make sense.
It is here that a short consideration of God's perfection might be valuable.
Perfection, to us, is a relative thing. For instance, my freckle-faced gal is perfect in my eyes, in that I wouldn't trade her for anyone else in the world. Is she perfect in the absolute sense? Of course not.
But we all seem to have an innate sense that there is an "absolute truth", a universal "bottom line" that corresponds with reality. It is a major part of the foundation of our faith and even sanity. Should we lose that, we lose our direction and drift from thing to thing, with a predilection toward pleasing ourselves.
(As a sidelight here, many have read "The Hobbit" series, and though they are fascinating stories, have been left with a vague uneasiness. I have, and I traced it to the fact that good never prevails simply because it was right. It always won because it was more lucky or crafty than its opponents. It makes evil and good appear to be on a par with one another.)
If God is not perfect in the absolute sense, that eliminates any "absolute truth". There would be no bottom line, and everything in the universe would be relative.
This looks like an impasse. If he knew, then he appears guilty of wrongdoing. If he did not know, then how could he be perfect?
One Possibility
Part of the answer to that may lie in the perfection of his love. For example, we as parents have the right to search our child's room if we deem it necessary. But most of us choose not to do that because we love them, want to be close to them, and want them to respond willingly and cheerfully, and desire the relationship to be based on mutual respect and trust. Hopefully, by our taking the lead in such things, they will respond.
You might say that we choose not to know some things in order for them to have practice in making decisions. How else will they become adults who are free moral agents, and that can stand on their own? If we choose to know every little thing about them, they have no opportunity to demonstrate their heart conditions, and may just as well be automatons or tape recorders.
That appears to be the case in the Garden of Eden. He gave Satan (in his pre-fallen form) a great privilege and trusted him to care for it. He chose not to know for the same reason mentioned above. Satan took advantage of that trust.
This could be similar to a general delegating responsibility to his junior officers, and then standing back and letting them take the initiative in implementing those orders.
Let's sum it up this way: 1 John 4: 8 says that " . . . God is love." It is clear from the Biblical description (1 Corinthians 13: 4-7) that faith and trust are an integral part of love. Satan was unworthy of his.
An Additional Factor
A student of logic will object to this though, saying that if Jehovah is indeed omniscient, then he would have to know a matter in order to decide not to know it. Such a contention is not easily refuted.
An answer to that, though, may be found in the fact that we have been created as free agents, capable of exercising free will.
Let's illustrate. We as children may know that our mother has baked our favorite cookies and that a whole can of them sits up there on the shelf. We may also know that she is planning to serve them later and has asked us not to eat any. Would we be disobeying her by simply thinking about how delicious they are?
Or we may well daydream about how pretty all of the gold in Fort Knox is, and how much fun we could have if we owned half of it. We may even enjoy looking for ways of outsmarting the defenses, if for no other reason that it is fun to try to prove the impossible, possible. Have we committed a crime?
No, because disobedience does not begin without overt action accompanying it. Note that scripture backs this thought. (James 1: 13-15) Also, take note of how this factor worked in Cain's case. (Genesis 4: 3-12)
In the Bible's definition of love (1 Corinthians 13: 4-7) it speaks of how love " . . . bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things." Implicit in this is the necessity for trust and faith. If we do not give others the benefit of the doubt, then we do not love them.
This is why most of us choose not to search our children's rooms. It is a slap in the face telling them loudly and clearly that they are not trusted, a violation of the principle of self-determination, and the beginning of mind control. Such injustice also removes nearly all motive for them to be trustworthy.
This factor of being a free moral agent would also apply to the spirit creatures, including Satan the Devil. Keep in mind that from what we can glean from scripture he had a long record of faithful service before he rebelled, and thereby provided no overt cause for Jehovah to intervene.
Next: The Plot
LoneWolf
gotcha

a nice article on this is evil by mccabe if i remember it right..
part of his article dealt on the meaning of evil/badness..maybe it would be nice to see you're take on the definition of those word/s..
Frenchy

Lonewolf:
I agree with a lot of what you say here for I have said some of those same things myself. For example, I believe that the ‘plot’ by Satan was/is at a very high level of sophistication, perhaps much beyond what humans may be able to comprehend. A line from Milton’s Paradise Lost: “Not more almighty to resist our might. Than wise to frustrate all our plots and wiles” (Belial’s argument against warring with heaven after their ousting.
God’s allowance (gift) of free will would, of necessity, require him to NOT foreknow those actions which are ours to choose. The moment that he would KNOW what we will do would, by definition, seal that action and prevent any other course of action (no second thoughts!) However, that would not mean (as you pointed out in your illustrations) that it would keep him from knowing all the possible courses of action that we might take. Knowing that, he surely knew the possibility of Satan’s rebellion and its consequences. Therefore, this leads me to believe that God ALLOWED this to happen. He KNEW it was a possibility.
In order for Satan to have his free will (and one cannot be judged without it) God had to ‘look away’ and allow the creature to make his own choices. True enough, he chose not to know what Satan would do but he KNEW that the possibility of rebellion existed and what it would mean for mankind.
There is a scripture which I find especially thought provoking in connection with this. “Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;” Heb 5:8 – NWT From this it would appear that the Son, himself, had something to learn or at the very least, another aspect of what he already knew about obedience.
“And not only that, but let us exult while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope,” Ro 5: 3,4 --NWT Again, if tribulations produce beneficial results it’s a strong argument that God not only permitted the rebellion that caused the ‘fall’ but that had Satan not rebelled, God would perhaps have allowed something else to be the catalyst that would plunge mankind into this confusing madness in which we are struggling so desperately.
LoneWolf

gotcha --- Hmmm. That intrigues me. Do you have a source where I could find that article?
Hadn't really examined evil/badness specifically. Trouble is, now you've got me wondering. . .
Frenchy --- Much of what you write is parallel to my own thoughts.
I suspicion that we need to delve into the concept of perfection a bit more, especially relative perfection vs. absolute perfection. For instance, if he is omniscient, how could he have perfect love, for the most active ingredient of love is trust and faith. You can exercise neither trust or faith when you already know everything.
However, I go into these areas much more in section 2, "The Plot".
Tell me what you think. I'm sorely interested.
LoneWolf
tyydyy

Thank you for that post Lone Wolf,
I started out nodding my head in agreement .....until...you got to the part where you started making illogical assumptions and analogies that make the wrong assumptions.
I do give my child the free will to do the things she wants to do. (she is 7 by the way) I do though, periodically, search her room. How could any parent that loves his child do that? Doesn't that mean that I don't love her or trust her? No and Yes. No, it doesn't mean that I don't love her and YES, it means that I don't completely trust her. Is there a conflict and contradiction in my statement? I don't think so. I give my daughter the respect, free will and privacy that I think she needs to develop into a healthy adult. ON THE OTHER HAND.......If my daughter were to put someone elses life and happiness in danger, I would not hesitate to stop her by ANY means possible. I make no claims of being PERFECT, yet I am capable of caring for others that aren't even my daughter. I don't care how long she's been good. If I knew of an attempt on her part to lead someone down a path of certain destruction, or even possible destruction, I would instantly stop it. I can accept the premise that God didn't know what Satan was about to do. I can even accept the premise that God wanted to see what the reaction of the humans would be. I absolutely CANNOT accept the fact that a God that possesses at least the same capability to love and care for strangers that I do, would allow the humans to make a fatal mistake. A mistake that would not only doom them, but their children and almost every human born afterward to a life of struggle, suffering, pain and death.
When you have suffered excruciating pain, like a massive burn, you get a taste of what others have suffered. Not just some historical figures that appear in our minds like characters in a novel. No, people like you and me, women and children who have suffered lifetimes of unspeakable tortures, rapes, daily abuse and psychological pummeling. These people have become real to me. They are not pawns in some GAME. They are not meaningless colatoral casualties on some theocratic chess board. They might as well be my own children. Your analogy justifying the human suffering because God wanted to show his heretofore faithful servant that he trusted him holds about as much water as an upsidedown cup.
It really bothers me when people claim to use logic and then turn around and use analogies. Analogies that are then misapplied. Christians are the best at twisting analogies. You can come up with hypothetical scenarios all day long, and I'd love to hear them. But...
Your postulates are not acceptable to me. I can accept the assumption that some kind of god exists because "how did we get here?". I cannot accept your second assumption that there is an opposer. I can accept the POSSIBILITY but there are also other possibilities.
Yet the existence of both is central to the credibility of nearly all faith
You see... you are assuming that everyone has a faith. Not so. Most if not all societies have followed their leaders in this matter of faith but individuals who think for themselves will not have faith in something that cannot be proven or at least measured.
When you base an arguement on a false or at least presumptuous assumption, you lose the interest of those who choose not to blindly follow.
TimB
Satanus

Lonewolf
Another possible solution is to flush the whole god/devil/genesis conundrum down the toilet. It's admirable trying to unravel it as you are, but it is really mental calisthenics to overcome the impossibly large contradictions. If you do the above suggested, you will find other theories that give more satisfactory answers, not perfect, but better, IMHO. There are other paradigms to check out.
SS
LoneWolf

tyydyy --- And thank you for your answer too. It is well written and both its meaning and the emotion behind it is perfectly understandable.
A word of caution --- searching your daughter's room at the age of 7 and searching it when she's a teenager are two VERY different things. Right now her prime reaction would probably be hurt feelings. You do it when she is a teenager and you will not only have all-out war, but you will have destroyed much of your credibility both with her and any siblings she may have. You will find that even if you prevail at the moment, you will lose in the end.
I've known many kids who, when they realized that they were not trusted, bitterly said to the effect, "I have the name, I might as well have the game," then go and deliberately do the very thing that their parents were trying to prevent.
Take it from a man who knows. I have five daughters and one son, the youngest is 16, and I've maintained the love and trust of all of them in spite of being disfellowshipped and shunned by the congregation. (They are all still in.) That took some doing.
I'd like to save my comments about most of your answer until after you see part 2, The Plot, as it paints a different scenario than most are used to. Otherwise, I'll be repeating some here that is already written there.
As to the postulates, I quite willingly accept the concept of an opposer for many reasons. One would be that I've studied much on the ancient legends and histories and have traced with great interest the opposing strategies of these two sides. One very small example: You've probably heard that the Bible was taken from more ancient records written by the Chaldeans, etc. In fact, this is commonly accepted by most of modern society, as the accounts are remarkably similar, with the Chaldean having more detail than the Biblical.
What we have NOT been told is that these two accounts are obviously written from opposing sides and written to glorify the side doing the writing. I'd be happy to give you an example if you're interested.
Another reason is the witness of the things created. A great deal can be told about an artist by studying his work. Can a woman's heart, faith, and trust stem from the same source as gang rape and murder? Will a creator that has such consideration for us that he even makes it feel good when we relieve ourselves, be so callus as to not care about child sacrifice? All the evidence points to two authors here, one good and one that's trying to sabotauge everything.
I'm stating flatly that organized religion has been used by Satan to obfuscate knowledge, not promote it. And yes, the WTBTS has done their share of that obfuscating. The bottom line: Don't judge God by what religion teaches about him. They are a pack of liars.
You say that you can accept the POSSIBILITY of the existance of an opposer, and that is all I'm doing here. Science, research, and all forms of knowledge gaining is rife with assumptions, suppositions, theories, etc., etc. They are the mother of new knowledge, as the perceptions are necessary before they can be proved. Have I not said at the beginning of each sections that I am NOT claiming that these are THE answers and that a great deal more work needs to be done on them? Be fair here.
Nor are you fair on the other postulate. You say, "You see --- You are assuming that everyone has a faith." No, I'm not. Let me illustrate: I could say that the term "wetback" is offensive to all Mexicans. Does that mean that I am saying that all humans are Mexicans and therefore all humans are offended? Hardly.
Likewise with my useage of the word "faith" here. To most of those who have faith, or, to rephrase that, to most of those who follow most religious organizations, the concept of a Satan is one of the central teachings.
Once again, I ask no one for blind faith, for that is nothing but gullibility. Perhaps you didn't catch my comments to gravedancer over on his thread that expresses that thought in detail.
SaintSatan --- LOL. I think that would take a pretty good sized pot, I do, I do.
I must confess to a weakness here. There are few things in this world that are more fun for me than to have someone (Or better yet, a whole bunch of someones) tell me that something is impossible. Then you just know I've got to try it! It's amazing how many times I succeed, too! Hehehehehe!!!
It's like the time in Analytic Geometry class in highschool that I proved the teacher, answer book, and the whole blinkin' class wrong on a major quadratics problem. Man, was I in the doghouse!!! You can imagine how much that hurt my feelings.
Yup, there are many other paradigms. However, would we be truly thinking freely if we arbitrarily reject any of them? You guys are doing a fine job on most of those others. I'm counting on you guys to present them as clearly as possible, and I'm convinced that you can do that better than I. Meanwhile, I think that I can advance this one beyond where it has been before. Shouldn't I do my best?
Think about it.
I like your motto.
LoneWolf
tyydyy

Lone Wolf,
Are you saying that in order to keep peace in my house, I'll have to look the other way when my daughter does something wrong. When she decides to sneak drugs into my house and invite her friends to join her, I should just stand back and watch? Like God did?
TimB
tyydyy

Can a woman's heart, faith, and trust stem from the same source as gang rape and murder?
Yes! In fact, everything stemmed from the same source at one point. If my brother was a murderer, that wouldn't make me a murderer just because I had the same source. There are many reasons for why people do bad things and I cannot accept that the reason is some big bad spirit named Satan made them do it.
TimB
Frenchy

::: For instance, if he is omniscient, how could he have perfect love, for the most active ingredient of love is trust and faith. You can exercise neither trust or faith when you already know everything.:::
We are getting into areas here that could easily fill an entire chapter if not a book. You talk of relative perfection and I agree. Perhaps my view of omniscience should also be qualified. There is not a grain of sand of which God is not aware. Not a breath of wind stirs without his being aware of it. There is not an instant of time in which he is not fully aware of where every single star is, every particle of dust, every thought that forms in every synapse of every brain, human and animal, every subatomic particle of matter, and every expenditure of energy in the entire material universe. He also remembers where those things were and what they were doing from the moment of their creation until now. He is also aware of everything that happens and has happened in what we can only assume is the infinitely more complex heavens in which he is said to reside. What he doesn’t know are the choices that he has given you to make otherwise they would not be choices.
I agree with tyydyy about his view of trust. I trusted my children when they were growing up but that did not keep me from going through their rooms and they knew it. They may have been up to something that they did not even realize was dangerous. I questioned them about where they went and what they did. I verified their stories when I could so that I could trust their answers when no verification was possible. Trust, unlike love, is something earned. I would always love my children, good or bad. I might not have trusted them had they not given me good cause to do so.

The Problem of Evil --- The Dilemma

Share this