Why Did Jesus Suffer?

by leavingwt 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    If I want to forgive someone, it's not necessary for me to punish anyone. It makes absolutely no sense to me, why an Almighty, loving God would punish his Son, for an offense that someone else committed.

    Here is what some others to have to say on the topic. . .

    Tom Smith:

    "For some strange reason God believed the cross was necessary for our salvation."

    John Hick:

    "The idea that guilt can be removed from a wrongdoer by someone else being punished instead is morally grotesque."

    Bishop John Shelby Spong:

    "I, for example, do not believe in a God who willed Jesus to suffer for my sins. I do not believe in a God whose inner need for justice is satisfied when his son is nailed to a cross. I regard the substitutionary version of the atonement as a barbaric attack on both the truth of God and the meaning of human life."

    John W. Loftus:

    "I think the whole idea of Jesus dying for my sins to restore me to God is built upon the beliefs of a superstitious ancient world, where gods and goddesses were pleased with sacrifices, whether they were human or animal ones. This ancient world is long gone now, and it's time to give up believing in an incarnate God who offered a sacrifice for us on the cross to atone for our sins."

    What do you think?

  • moshe
    moshe

    Well, Jesus has been a no-show going on 2000 years now. That should be answer enough.

  • Ding
    Ding

    I believe the Bible teaches that when a sinner comes to faith in Christ, God gives that person a new birth and places him spiritually "in Christ" so that spiritually speaking, we become united with Christ in his suffering and death. That is, God punished us "in Christ," which is how His justice is satisfied.

    2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

    Rom. 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..."

    Rom. 6:4-8: We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
    5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."

    Eph. 4:32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

    Eph. 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-- to the praise of his glory.

    Eph. 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

    1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

    Col. 2:9-14 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

    1 Cor. 1:30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God-- that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

    2 Tim. 2:10-13 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory. 11 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; 12 if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; 13 if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    What a great idea for a thread. This question has not been asked nearly enough!

    It amazes me that Christians (and especially JW's, who are NOT Christians) are so averse to any discussions about mysticism, and yet the idea that blood has some magical, profound, "sacred" and "holy" essence to it that it not only must be treated as such but also has the power to forgive all the sins in the history of the planet if the shed blood comes from someone who is "perfect", whatever that means. Atonement is ridiculous and it comes from the same brilliant minds as the "eye for an eye" mentality.

    Also, one would think that a god who is "love" would find a way, some kind of escape clause, to make an exemption to this psychotically deranged blood "requirement". No, instead, this loving "Daddy" would rather stick to his guns, punish his own son brutally and make billions and billions suffer for thousands of years while he safeguards the holiness of this sacred bodily fluid.

    ~PS

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt
    Atonement is ridiculous and it comes from the same brilliant minds as the "eye for an eye" mentality.

    Yes. In this case an eye for an eye would be more just, IMHO. The guilty people could suffer what Christ did -- for less than one week -- and escape an eternity in Hell.

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    The entire concept is ludicrous. Even if the concept was not ludicrous, the idea that it takes 6000 years, so far, to fully implement, is, isn't it?

    Nothing in the superstitious universe in which this concept holds sway makes real sense. Like all fantasies, it cannot and never will.

    Jeff

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    There is nothing new about sacrificing to a god or gods. Like most of the bible the ideas are taken from mythology and rehashed. "Many religious ceremonies have included sacrifice, the act of giving up something of value and offering it to a deity. Worshipers may make a sacrifice to win the favor of the deity, to give thanks, or to maintain a good relationship with the god. Myths from around the world contain many examples of sacrifices in which animals, humans, and even gods shed blood or die. Sometimes the sacrifice is linked with creation or with the continuation of life on earth." Read more: Sacrifice - Myth Encyclopedia - mythology, god, story, names, ancient, tree, animal, war, Norse, Hindu, world, creation, life, king, people, fire, warriorhttp://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Pr-Sa/Sacrifice.html#ixzz10afH3PdE

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    That the Source of all universes (and there may be infinite universes), is attributable to some Deity and Son, is -- as has already been mentioned -- archaic nonsense. Small gods for small minds. So we wouldn't expect the stories about these fictitious creatures to make much sense either. That said, it's not bad, it's just the way it is, the way the limited mind attempts to make sense of an existence which is infinity more real and raw than can ever be conceptually understood.

    The key is to stop trying to understand it all; and instead just dissolve into the aliveness.

  • JimmyPage
    JimmyPage

    Why did Jesus suffer?

    Why did Perseus cut off Medusa's head?

    Because it makes great theater.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Jimmy, I think you've nailed it...

    to the cross, so to speak.

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