A flaw in JW logic on sin and transmision

_Morpheus

The "special talk" this year was about family happiness. As always seems to be the case it was a bait and switch job since the talk had actually nothing to do with how to achive family happiness and everything to do with jw doctrine on why familys are unhappy. Mine is unhappy because of jw doctrine but thats the implied irony in attending the sunday indoctrination I suppose.

That said, the speaker trotted out the oft used jw illistration of a dented bread pan to describe why and how sin was passed from one human (adam) to another (all of us). In short, a dented bread pan can only produce dented bread since its the mold for all bread. We are dented since our mold, adam, was dented.

Im certain im not the first to ever comment on this but it struck me today just how flawed this illistration is. It makes "sin" a genetic abnormality. If thats the case, so be it. The flaw becomes the bible itself. The bible never describes "sin" as something inherent. It always describes sin as ACTIONS on our part or even the lack of action, but never as some genetic defect.

In order to bridge this gab between gentics and actions jw doctrine says we are unable to always do whats right because adams sin somehow corrupted his dna and passed on to us the inability to make "perfect" choices 100% of the time....

Clearly adam himself was unable to make "perfect" choices 100% of the time! How is this a genetic defect on any level? Its so convoluted this weird wedding of modern science and bronze age superstitions. Add to it the jw doctrine/bible teaching that adam had to be banned from the garden so he didnt eat from the tree of life and thus keep living! That particular teaching dosent harmonize at all since it ties life to the eating of fruit from a certain tree, NOT sin or genetics or the weird amalgamation of the two.

Its no secret im not a bible believer at this point but if anyone could shed light on a christian persepective on this is be interested in reading it

hoser

I'll mull this over as I'm attending the talk this morning.

Phizzy

I pointed out the defect in the "dented pan" illustration 20 or so years ago, whilst still an active JW.

If it was a genetic problem, then man could gain the knowledge of how to genetically cure sin. No need for Jesus to die, just a bit of genetic engineering.

How could such a thing as sinning in the way Adam did be passed on genetically ? what nonsense !

Of course the Original Sin idea is not actually contained in the Genesis story. And story it is of course, I thoroughly recommend watching the video of Ricky Gervais on Genesis, hilarious, and puts the story in its place.

Bloody Hotdogs!

JWs teach that Adam was a physically perfect, free moral agent. Adam's sin did not cause him to lose physical perfection, rather God took it away. This would imply that God altered/corrupted Adam's DNA. In so doing, God chose to condemn all of us, because we inherited Adam's corrupted DNA.

JWs teach that the "Tree of Life" was only symbolic, and had no supernatural life-granting properties.

“[Jehovah] then had to act as Judge, supporting and applying his own statement of the consequences.
God had told Adam: “In the day you eat from [the tree of the knowledge of good and bad] you will certainly die.” Adam may well have understood this “day” to be a 24-hour day. After violating God’s command, he could have expected Jehovah to act before the sun set....
Then [Jehovah] pronounced sentence on the wrongdoers. Were he to execute them then and there, his purpose regarding Adam and Eve and their offspring would come to nothing. Although he confirmed the death penalty and the effects of sin began immediately, he allowed Adam and Eve to produce children who could benefit from other provisions that He would make. Thus, from God’s standpoint, Adam and Eve died on the day they sinned, and they actually died within one “day” of 1,000 years.”
— Watchtower 09 2014

“GOD’S human sons were not meant to die. (Romans 8:20, 21) In fact, when Jehovah first spoke of death to Adam, it was mentioned, not as the outcome that man should normally expect, but as the punishment for disobedience to God.”
— Awake! 10/07 2007

“the Creator himself decreed the death sentence for the first human pair, implementing that sentence in a way that man does not fully understand...”
— Insight, Volume II pg. 247

“The first reference to death in the Scriptures occurs at Genesis 2:16, 17 in God’s command to the first man concerning the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, violation of which command would result in death. However, death among animals as a natural process was evidently already in effect, since they are passed over completely in the Biblical presentation of the introduction of death into the human family. The gravity of God’s warning about the death penalty for disobedience would therefore be understandable to his human son, Adam. Adam’s disobedience to his Creator brought death to him. Thereafter, Adam’s sin and its consequence, death, spread to all men.”
“Adam and Eve also experienced a physical change. God condemned them to death, just as he had said he would. They became imperfect, and this led to the corrupting of the whole human race—their offspring.”
— Watchtower 06/15 1984

“When Adam was created, God placed in the garden of Eden “the tree of life.” This tree evidently had no intrinsic life-giving qualities in its fruit, but it represented God’s guarantee of life “to time indefinite” to the one whom God would allow to eat of its fruit.”
— Insight, Volume II, pg. 245

B4Right

Adams body was perfect. Perfect thinking would not have resulted in any flaws namely sining. Having the ability to choose doesn't make you imperfect since YHWH created good and evil. Adam learn the results of choices you make and having a woman in your life to influence them do not always help. Sorry that's reality.

Until we cut thru the thousands of years of corrupt Christianity that has us stuck it will be difficult to fine the TRUTH.

leaving_quietly

You're right, it's a flaw. Sin is not genetic. Even death is not genetic. Perfect angels sinned. (2 Pet 2:4). But sin leads to death, so if everyone sins, everyone dies, because, sin's wages are death (Romans 6:23). There's nothing genetic about it. It's simply a logic problem: If x then y. If sin then death.

The word "imperfect" is not in the Bible. And, generally, when the Bible speaks of "perfect" or "perfection", it's talking about being complete or completely fulfilled, not perfect in the sense of flawless or sinless.

prologos

death has nothing to do with sin. how about stars, animals? it is a badly written story.

Island Man

JWs like to use the genetic illustration to avoid confronting the true ugly reality of what the bible shows.

JWs - Watchtower - love to turn a blind eye to what the bible says in preference for sugar-coated spin, when the bible says something unpalatable to Watchtower doctrine or modern ethics. A perfect example of this was found in last week's bible reading. An elder, commented on the passage that says a bad spirit from Jehovah terrified Saul. He basically denied what the text said by saying the text means something other than what it is saying, and the Watchtower explanation he gave clearly did not fit the context of what the text was saying. It was just so transparently dishonest - a willful denial of a plain scripture. That's one of things that infuriates me the most about JWism, Watchtower's penchant for willful dishonesty.

The sin of Adam was actually passed on to all humans as a curse. Adam was essentially cursed by God when he sinned. Because all his offspring was in his loins at the time, the curse placed on Adam also came upon them. Another way of looking at it is that Adam didn't sin by himself. All of humankind sinned with him because all his offspring were still in his loins when he sinned and thus sinned with him. This is the same kind of reasoning the bible uses at Hebrews 7:9-10 to make the point that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek centuries before he was even conceived:

(Hebrews 7:9, 10) . . .And, if I may use the expression, through Abraham even Le′vi who receives tithes has paid tithes, 10 for he was still in the loins of his forefather when Mel·chiz′e·dek met him.

This argument also appears to be supported by what Romans 5:12 says:

(Romans 5:12) . . .That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. . .

Notice this text says all men had sinned - past tense. How is that possible when there are future unborn generations who have not yet lived and sinned voluntarily? I think the text is essentially alluding to the fact that when Adam sinned all mankind - all unborn mankind yet to be conceived - sinned with him because of being in his loins at the time. So the bible seems to be suggesting that all mankind sinned with Adam and were cursed with Adam. Adam served as a proxy agent for all mankind just as Hebrews 7:9,10 suggests that Abraham served as a proxy agent for Levi, so that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek.

Saying that all mankind was cursed by God because of the sin of Adam doesn't paint God in the rosy light the JWs want him painted. The word curse also has a ring of superstition to it. So to avoid these. The JWs use the term inherited sin. People know about inheriting traits from their parents so the term inherited and the use of the genetic illustration, give the teaching an air of science to it, dispelling much of the superstitious connotations. It also sort of distances God from it because now death is seen as something we inherited from Adam as opposed to a curse imposed on us by God.

stuckinarut2

The whole concept of "inherited sin" makes no sense!

Why would a loving "god" happily allow future UNBORN generations to suffer for something that was OUT OF THEIR CONTROL?

That is called: Setting someone up to fail.

The very premise of trying to explain humanity like that proves that the concept of SIN was just devised in order to keep the masses controlled.....

_Morpheus

Island man, you exanation makes as much sense as anything. Prologos points play right alomg with yours as well. Animals had no access to the tree of life but had never sinned either. as for the explanation of the tree of life, i was aware of the jw stance that it was symbolic, but thats not what the scriptures explicitly state.

A flaw in JW logic on sin and transmision

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