Thanks, Bill, for giving a voice to those of us who were silenced.
My Response To J R Brown
by silentlambs 16 Replies latest jw friends
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TheOldHippie
Allow me, please, to briefly comment on your points as I see them, and have seen them in my years of service:
**********************************************************************1. If a pedophile were to move into your congregation, would you be informed?
The picture is not quite as black and white as you say, as the elders in the new congregation would keep an eye on him, and they would have been told by the ones in the former congregation what has been the situation.
2. If a pedophile molested your child, would you be allowed to warn other parents in your congregation?
I do not believe the gossip articles should be referred to here, as quietly warning people is something different from gossip.
3. If a pedophile denied he molested your child, and you could not produce two witnesses to the act of molestation, would the church discipline him/her in any way?
Discipline is one thing, making him aware of the situation and that one is keeping an eye on him, is another. He would be followed up.
4. If the state where you reside does not require reporting a pedophile that has molested a minor, will church officials report it?
This is a US thing - in this area, he would be reported, IF the elders are sane. If they say not to, they are NOT sane.
5. If, as an adult, you charge a pedophile with molesting you when you were a child and he denies it, would he discontinue serving as an elder?
One may shout at me here, but my feelings are, that whatever a person has done, if many - many - years have gone by and there have been no new incidents or anything, everybody deserves a second chance, don't you think? If you have something utterly wrong and you have completed the punishment handed out by society, you have paid your dues in that respect, and you should be allowed to try to give it a new start. I do not quite understand the campaigns in the USA where one hangs up posters etc. of previous offenders - they have no chance of starting all over again. Information to social workers, but to the general public? It ain't done in Europe, and I have problems seeing why it is deemed such a good thing, without questioning it.
Just to end it with stating again that of course they should be reported to the police, and there should be no hushing it down. On the other hand, we have seen instances where the allegations were mere productions of disturbed minds, and where the so-called offenders have been released after many years in jail, after it has been proved the allegations were false, returning to no family, no job, no house, but the convictions were false. Or they have hanged themselves in jail, as one man here did a couple of months or so ago. He had appealed, but lost. Then he hanged himself. Then the daughter and the mother came forward and said that it was all a fake, they wanted to give him a lesson because he had been too restrictive in financial matters, and after the appeal they wanted to tell the police it was all a fake. But too late, he had hanged himself.
These are so messy questions. I don't think the "Give 'em hell!" shouts, be it at the offenders or at the Society, is the Number One solution.
But I was never hurt or destroyed this way, so perhaps there are two worlds here, where we in world number one are theoretically discussing this, whereas those in world number two are the ones who have experienced it, and the two worlds here are unable to meet or to understand each other fully. I don't know.
Anyway, no matter what one believes, it's a shitty world. -
Perry
1. If a pedophile were to move into your congregation, would you be informed?
2. If a pedophile molested your child, would you be allowed to warn other parents in your congregation?
3. If a pedophile denied he molested your child, and you could not produce two witnesses to the act of molestation, would the church discipline him/her in any way?
4. If the state where you reside does not require reporting a pedophile that has molested a minor, will church officials report it?
5. If, as an adult, you charge a pedophile with molesting you when you were a child and he denies it, would he discontinue serving as an elder?It seems to me that policy should fall into two catagories. The confirmed pedophile and the alleged pedophile. When viewed this way many questions seem to answer themselves. Even in emotionally charged issues, reason must rule. A Salem witch trial is one possible result when reason is replaced with hysteria.
The question of establishing guilt seems to me to be a matter for Ceasar to handle rather than a congregation. It appears to me that the burden of proof would fall upon the accuser, or in the case of a minor, upon his/her guardians.
Sure, their is the scripture against taking your brother to court. But doesn't the grave consequences of this alleged crime with its implications of safety for other children together with the fact that a congregation is not trained in the skills of criminal investigations weigh in the favor of mitigating this biblical counsel. Even Jesus did things for people that he was not specifically authorized to do because to look the other way, and uphold a "law" would have violated the principle of love which is clearly superior. At Matt.15:21...Jesus did something that he three times said he would not do. The plantiff in this case sucesfully argued that a principle of love superceded a directive of supposed law. Jesus agreed and granted her request. If we don't like the current laws in our particular country then we could simply get busy in voting in law makers that will respond to the will of the majority if we live in a democratic country.
In the case of confirmed child molesters:
Policy makers in the Society should take the lead in providing justice and protection and not merely obey the current law of Ceasar. It could be church policy to list all confirmed pedophiles in a public notice board. Then each parent could simply check their sphere of contacts to see if any familiar names appear. Perhaps the age at the time of offense occured and the age of the victim could also be listed so as to leave it to each one to decide whether or not the 19 year old boy who had sex with the 15 year old girl would constitute pedophilia or not. The # of victims would also be helpful information. The society would not need to relay on Caesar's law to uphold Christs' principle of love if it was operating according to "Christ's mental attitude".
The issue of what a confirmed pedophile would and would not be allowed to do is also made more clear with the existence of a public information board. The true pedophile, in my opinion will never be able to change his sexual orientation. What do we do with them as a society (secular)? Do we lock them up forever? Do we make them wear a sign? Do we shoot them? While I personally prefer the ladder for repeat offenders, what about the pedophile who learns to choose to ignore his orientation? In the recent movie, " A beautiful Mind" the genius schzophrenic learned to ignore his delusions and went on to lead a near normal life which included winning the Nobel Prize. It was a true story.
In my opinion, an organization as large as the Society, should take a multi-disciplanary approach and include psychologists, criminolgists, sociologists, theologians and law enforcement into the formulation of policy. It appears that they have approached the issue from a standpoint of self interest and are consulting only lawyers which by nature are mostly reactionary and typically have little to do with policy advocacy.
What a sad legacy of legalism the Society has left us with:
Matt. 15:6b - And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
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pandora
Perry mentioned the scripture that says not to take you brother to court. Personally, I think that scripture was talking more about civil issues. If your brother's tree fell into your yard and he won't clean it up. Yeah it sucks, but turn the other cheek and let it go. But if your "brother" violates the "brotherhood" and does some horendous crime against your child or yourself?. Well, HE VIOLATED the BROTHERHOOD! He is no longer considered "brother" in MY eyes. I don't know how anyone COULD consider him "brother" after such a thing. Therefore the scripture becomes null and void. No brother of mine would do such a thing. No "Brother" would do that. He's not MY brother anymore. Take him to court!
Just my thoughts.
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sf
Mr. Bowen,
Did you not see my questions here? Please respond.
These are items I 'm not clear on. Please clear them up, as people will ask questions about policies of molesters going door 2 door...just as I have.
sKally
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LDH
Bill Bowen kicks WT arse!
Lisa
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picosito
There was a pedophilia situation that came up in a local
congregation about three years ago.
Seems a pedo chicken came home to roost for a fine upstanding elder.
The situation was from twenty or more years previous. The victim,
now grown up and married, was encouraged by current articles of
several years ago about child molestation, to report what had
happened when a minor. So the victim talked to local elders (another
state far away), who reported it to HQ. HQ appointed a couple of
elders to interview Upstanding Elder. He thought the problem had
been resolved years ago in the ORIGINAL congregation where the event
ocurred. But there it was as a resurrected skeleton now in his
current congregation, and according to WTS guidelines and how he
responded to their formulaic questions asked by the local brothers
assigned to interview him, WTS very quickly responded with ORDERS re
IMMEDIATE ACTION TO BE TAKEN regarding Upstanding Elder: immediate
removal as elder, no parts in any meeting except householder in
Service Meeting, no public prayers before the congregation, and no
taking younger ones along in Field Service.
Seems WTS was doing a sloppy job of giving lip service to info
they had published about molesters: I never heard anything mentioned
about any authorities ever having been informed from the very
beginning years ago, and the congregation was told ABSOLUTELY NADA
about WHY the WTS had taken such action, nor even that it was HQ that
took the action!!!
Bottom line: many pubs thought that the brothers assigned to
interview the molester were the ones that removed him because they
didn't like him, and those who had no opinion were ABSOLUTELY IN THE
DARK about why he got busted down to the basement. Not even anything
about how Upstanding Brother might be a danger to their kids.
My wife was so upset about what happened to the guy she started
having an attitude toward WTS because of how "unkindly"
and "unfairly" they treated him for "unknown" reasons. I started to
break down in my Seal of Confession mentality to share with her some
of what the problem had been with him so it would be more
understandable to her but she could not even believe it and wanted to
hear No More About It.
Now that I'm a big DISASS I realize that my loyalty was
displaced in keeping the garbage confidential; that the congregation
should have been informed about the molestation charge and that it
was WTS HQ that gave Upstanding the ax, not the elders assigned by
them to investigate the matter, who were taking the heat that HQ
should have been taking. Typically WTS was shoving responsibility
that THEY should have shouldered to anyone else they could so WTS
could continue in its tradition of loading crap on everyone else
(they never admit blame for ANYTHING, which will be part of their
undoing) so they could continue the illusion of being Jehovah's White
and Unsullied ORGANIZATION.
It will be interesting to see if this particular situation ---
and maybe many others of similar ilk --- comes under fire (for not
reporting original incident to police as well as the point of not
protecting the congregation's children) as pedophilia coverup
lawsuits start attacking WTS.