Recognizing Armageddon

by Cold Steel 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    It's appalling how little about Armageddon Jehovah's Witnesses know.

    First of all, if we experience a societal breakdown in the United States, chances are no one here will even know it's happening. People in Jerusalem will know it's happening because a HUGE international army will begin amassing in the valley of Har-Megiddon to the north of the city. But before that can happen, the Jews must build their temple as described in Ezekiel, and two prophets must be called who can keep those forces at bay. (JWs claim that "Jerusalem" and the two prophets are just "spiritual," and shouldn't be taken literally, but neither they nor the preterists can show any evidences in scripture where these prophecies are not literal.

    Anyone can read the scriptures for themselves. The FIRST thing I recommend is to stop reading the JW Bible. It is course and inaccurate. There are many much better translations available through the Bible Gateway (Internet). Whenever I read the JW scirptures, I think of those Shakespeare movies made into hip-hop English. Yeeesh!

    One non-JW scholar describes Armageddon thusly:

    The burden, or message of doom, to Israel opens the last section of Zechariah. The Lord promises to make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. All of the people of the earth will be gathered against Jerusalem. The governors, or leaders, of Judah are to devour the people round about and the Lord will defend Jerusalem. (Zech. 12:1-8.) This is another description of the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 16:16) or the valley of decision. (Joel 3.) At the conclusion of the battle, the Lord will appear to his people, the embattled Jews, and they will recognize him as their Messiah, but they "will look upon me whom they have pierced." (Zech. 12:10.) There is a dual fulfillment of this prophecy. It was quoted by John in his Gospel as being fulfilled while Christ was on the cross (John 19:37); however, the same author spoke of his coming in the clouds of heaven "and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him" (Rev. 1:7). The context of Zechariah supports the latter fulfillment. The text continues with a declaration that there would be great mourning in Jerusalem in that day. (Zech. 12:11-14.)

    The following chapter speaks of a day of restoration among Judah. It speaks of a fountain being "opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness." (Zech. 13:1.) The fountain refers to the ordinance of baptism for the remission of individual sins and is supported by the prophet Isaiah's declarations of Judah's opening the gate of baptism as well as a political invitation to the nation that keepeth the truth. (Isa. 26:2.) Thus the gospel will be preached in the homeland of the Jews to the Jews.

    Zechariah continues with the prophecy of the idols and false prophets being cut off in the land. (Zech. 13:2-5.) The text returns to an extension of Zechariah 12:10. As they look upon him whom they have pierced, one shall say to the Savior, "What are these wounds in thine hands?" Then he shall answer, "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zech. 13:6.) The scriptures equate these words with the mourning mentioned in Zechariah 12. Zechariah 13 concludes with a prophecy that two-thirds of the Jewish people will be killed in the battle of Armageddon, but the third that survive will be refined and made the people of the Lord. (Zech. 13:7-9.)

    The final chapter of Zechariah speaks of the coming of the "day of the Lord." It is the day when all nations shall gather against Jerusalem to battle and the Lord will fight against those nations. (Zech. 14:1-3.) When the Lord appears, his feet shall stand upon the Mount of Olives, and it shall cleave in the midst towards the east and the west with the mount being moved half to the north and half to the south. (Zech. 14:4.) The Lord compares the fleeing of the people at this time to the earthquake in the days of Uzziah. (Zech. 14:5.)

    The earthquake was to accompany the coming of the Lord and all the Saints with him. (Zech. 14:5.) The Savior's instructions to his disciples on the Mount of Olives qualifies the Saints coming with him as the Saints from the four quarters of the earth who have slept or died, being resurrected at his coming. This event was to happen before the arm of the Lord fell upon the surrounding nations. ...

    Zechariah next speaks of living water coming out from Jerusalem, half toward the former sea (Dead Sea) and half toward the hinder sea (Mediterranean). This water was to run in the winter as well as the summer. (Zech. 14:8.) The living water suggests that it is symbolic of Christ. (See also John 4:10-15; 7:37.)

    After these events, the Lord will be king over all the earth and Jerusalem shall be inhabited safely. (Zech. 14:9-11.) Other Old Testament prophets also prophesied of his role as king. (Jer. 23:5; Ezek. 34:23-24; 37:24-27.)

    Zechariah then speaks of the plague that will come upon those who fight against Jerusalem. The flesh, the eyes, and the tongue shall fall away. (Zech. 14:12.) This plague sounds like the plagues mentioned in other scriptures that will come before the great day of the Lord. Zechariah speaks further of those who will not come up to Jerusalem to worship. (Zech. 14:16-19.) Although the feast of the tabernacles is mentioned, a festival under the law of Moses, it probably symbolizes the higher law that will be followed in the Millennium.

    Now please read the following passage from Zechariah and see if it sounds like the JW interpretation:

    Zechariah 14:2-14: "Then shall [Jehovah] go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye [the Jews] shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.... And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.... And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance." (KJV)

    This sounds fairly plain to me, but the Faithful and Discreet Slave has said that nothing in the above scripture is literal! How, they ask, can Jehovah (who's a spirit) have feet?? They also deny that Jehovah is Jesus Christ and insist that He, instead, is Michael.

    We also read:

    Zechariah 12:9-11: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

    Again, Jerusalem can't be the literal Jerusaelm. Again, Jehovah speaks about looking upon "me" whom they [the Jews] have pierced, indicating that He, in fact, is Jesus Christ. In the next chapter: "And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (13:6)

    If we have a societal breakdown in the United States, we may not even be aware that these events are taking place. There may be no satellites, no worldwide communications no CNN (not that anyone watches them anymore, anway) or any other television service.

    John, in the book of Revelation, says, "For it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months (3.5 years)." The part about the two prophets, or witnesses, is in chapter 11, which the FDS also refuses to interpret literally. After describing their mission, John says, "These are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks, standing before the God of the earth." So if the two olive trees and two candlesticks are the two prophets, then how could the two prophets be spiritually something else? It doesn't make any sense.

    So how do we know that the "holy city" is Jerusalem (other than the fact that John says so)? Well, he also says in verse 8 that the dead bodies of these two prophets shall "lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt." This isn't exactly a compliment -- John is comparing Jerusalem with two of the most corrupt places in scripture. The fact is, Jesus/Jehovah isn't coming to Jerusalem because of its righteousness, but to show to them that He is God, the Redeemer and Savior of the world. Anyway, these two prophets will stun the Beast, the Antichrist, by physically rising to their feet and ascending to heaven to meet the coming Christ!

    This isn't complicated. It's Prophecy 101.

    When the Watchtower, in December 2005, says of Armageddon, "The word is shrouded in mystery and misconceptions," and that "ideas to its meaning abound, most of them are not in line with what the Bible -- the source of the expression -- teaches," I almost choked on the irony! Somehow the WBTS believes that Armageddon will involve them, not Jerusalem, despite all the scriptures to the contrary. So when the Watchtower asks, "Do You Know the Truth About Armageddon," the answer they must admit, is NO! They leave out most of the picture!

  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    Prophecy 101 = "We are alive now so this must be relevant to us NOW"

    Welcome the to past 2000 years of history.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Only preterists believe that all prophecy has been fulfilled, which is an untenable position.

    Who the Antichrist/Beast will be remains unknown; however, I don't believe the U.S. will be a viable power to stop him. My own personal views is that he will be a European or Asian power, and that he will consolidate the miltary and social power after America's downfall. I don't believe the United Nations will survive. The Bible indicates there will be ten nations from which the Beast will arise. Could it be the European Union? Possibly, because John says they are "ten kings which have received no kingdom as yet."

    The great whore that sits upon the many waters appears to be a quasi-political power. John calls her a "city" that "sits upon seven mountains." Rome, Constantinople and Mecca are all cities that sit on seven mountains. She has "drunken...the blood of the saints."

    The city appears to be Rome because John associates the whore with Babylon. In 1 Peter 5:3, the apostle writes sarcastically: "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you!" Since he's writing from Rome, he's making the connection himself. I also suspect that it was a first century joke among Christians. At any rate, the city, whichever city it is, will be destroyed in one hour. John wrote in 18:10, "standing afar off for fear of her torment...for in one hour is thy judgment come." In verse 17 he repeats, saying, "For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. ... the company of ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off." And in verse 19 he says again, "for in one hour is she made desolate."

    How will she perish? John says she will perish by fire (verse 16) and 18:9. (See also 17:16, which points the finger at the ten kingdoms.)

    The idea of those of her former clients standing "afar off" indicates to me the possible use of a small nuclear device.

    Again, the identity of the city is open for grabs.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Because the WT forbids JWs from studying the teachings of other religious organizations, they are unaware of alternative interpretations of Bible prophecy.

    The WTBTS has always taken the position that it is at the center of all end times prophecies.

    Ironically, the end times prophecy that does clearly include the WTBTS leadership is Matthew 7:15: "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    *yawn*

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Actually, Armageddon is quite fascinating when you learn about what it really entails.

    Before the battle could take place, Judah had to be gathered back to its ancestral homelands. That means that in the 1800s, no one really knew that Israel would be reestablished. And that had to happen prior to Armageddon. It also can't happen now because the U.S. is a friend and protector to Israel. No power could move against Israel without us intervening. That means we either have to change our stance or we have to be taken out of the ballgame. I believe it will be the latter. The "beast" of Revelation isn't Satan as the JW FDS says it is. Satan is the dragon that gives the beast its power to do miracles, etc., and win support of the people throughout Europe. (And some people believe the U.S. is the beast.)

    If you don't know or believe, it can all be quite boring. Prophecy has been correct about Israel being reestablished, as well as other things, so I give it quite a bit of credence. Still, to each their own.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Cold steel, I really wonder where you come up with this stuff. Is this WT or your own ideas?

    "Before the battle could take place, Judah had to be gathered back to its ancestral homelands. That means that in the 1800s, no one really knew that Israel would be reestablished."

    Israel is figurative. It is not the country.

    "And that had to happen prior to Armageddon.It also can't happen now because the U.S. is a friend and protector to Israel. No power could move against Israel without us intervening. That means we either have to change our stance or we have to be taken out of the ballgame. I believe it will be the latter."

    This literal political interpretation has nothing to do with the spiritual battle ground.

    "The "beast" of Revelation isn't Satan as the JW FDS says it is. Satan is the dragon that gives the beast its power to do miracles, etc., and win support of the people throughout Europe. (And some people believe the U.S. is the beast.)"

    What gives the beast it's power is the people, the masses, who support the system. Are you in or out?

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Cold steel, I really wonder where you come up with this stuff. Is this WT or your own ideas?

    No, the Watchtower believes that Israel is the figurative representation of Israel. But Armageddon has to do with "Jerusalem," not Israel per se.

    Israel is figurative. It is not the country.

    Not true. Israel is the country. Proof? Check out a map. Isaiah writes: "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

    When was the first time? It was during the Babylonian conquest. Since then, Judah has not been gathered UNTIL OUR DAY. This is the second time. Thus, Zechariah writes, "In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem... And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." (12:8-9) And "And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem." (14:14).

    So unless you're willing to say the scriptures don't mean what they appear to mean -- that they somehow have a "spiritual" meaning so that they don't mean what they appear to mean, it just doesn't work. When John describes the "city where David dwelt, and in which our Lord was crucified," he's not talking about a publishing company in Brooklyn, and he's not talking about modern Christians. He's talking about Jerusalem.

    This literal political interpretation has nothing to do with the spiritual battle ground.

    Yeah, right.

    What gives the beast it's power is the people, the masses, who support the system. Are you in or out?

    Sorry, "and the dragon gave him his power." (Rev. 13:2) I will concede, however, that the people also give the beast his power. But they will be influenced by the miracles they see the beast do.

    When will all these things happen? The 6th Seal earthquake hasn't happened yet, but could at any time. After that, there will be silence in heaven for the period of a half an hour. That works out to be about 21 years. Then there will be all hell breaking loose and after that the beast will arise. Best guess is about 30-50 years before Christ's return.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Sorry, the bottom part should be formatted:

    What gives the beast it's power is the people, the masses, who support the system. Are you in or out?

    Sorry, "and the dragon gave him his power." (Rev. 13:2) I will concede, however, that the people also give the beast his power. But they will be influenced by the miracles they see the beast do.

    When will all these things happen? The 6th Seal earthquake hasn't happened yet, but could at any time. After that, there will be silence in heaven for the period of a half an hour. That works out to be about 21 years. Then there will be all hell breaking loose and after that the beast will arise. Best guess is about 30-50 years before Christ's return.

  • streets76
    streets76

    Armageddon has already happened. Back in 1975. It was invisible. Sorry you missed it.

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