Bart Ehrman

by Joey Jo-Jo 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    if you read God's problem you will see that neither Misquoting Jesus or Jesus interropted was the reason why Bart became an Agnostic.

    It had more to do with the OT and NT view of suffering in relation to the real world, which I agree with him in that it does not make any sense.

    I dont understand how someone that knows sooo much about bible like Leolaia and PSacramento continue studying the bible, maybe I am missing something, I have only read all books mentioned in this post, so we all agree that the bible is not the word of God, what about the messiah? Is Jesus the Christ?

    My last post http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/201914/1/The-bible-crisis-thread I was expecting some very animated replies but nothing so far, anyone feel free to correct me, what I posted is a summed up version on what is mentioned in Jesus Interropted.

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    Anyone??

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Joey,

    Bart was trained under Bruce Metzger, Bart's first "book" ( I think, I am not sure of this) was a chapter in the revised addition of Metzger's book about the text of the NT, its transmission, corruption and restoration. It is a great book and I suggest to anyone that likes to learn about things liek this, to get it.

    It is even, unbiased and, except for Bart's chapter that tends to be overly opinionated, based on textual and historical critique.

    I love to study the bible because it is a facinating book, whether it is "breath of God" or not is not that relevant to me.

    I understand the issues that surround it but it seems to me that most people have issues because THEY somehow choose to believe that it is inerrant and the LITERAL word of God, and since the bible makes NO SUCH claim ( it even has passages warning that it was tampered with and to test all that is written) that fact that some people choose to view it that way is up to them.

    Look, Bart makes valid points, sure his points are really anything new or that haven't been discussed before, but they are points that all believers need to understand and address.

    The fact that he become agnostic ( or however he referes to himself) is smething that has to do with HIM, MANY have faced the points and issues he raises and have become more faithful in the process.

  • Giordano
    Giordano

    I've read two of Bart's books including 'God's Problem', Since some have not read that one I'll review a few points. Before I do I'd like to say that old habits die hard as this discussion is pro or con based on one's belief. Some can't shake that old time religion and some can't return to that old time religion either.

    Bart D. Ehrman is an American New Testament scholar, currently a Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

    He is the author of a number of books, including Misquoting Jesus (2005), God's Problem (2008), and Jesus, Interrupted (2009).

    In his books, he recounts his youthful enthusiasm as a born-again evangelical Christian, sure that God had inspired the very words of the Bible and protected them from all error. His graduate studies, however, eventually convinced him that the Bible makes more sense when one acknowledges its contradictions than when one creates elaborate explanations to reconcile them. He remained a Christian for 15 years but later became an agnostic because of the problem of human suffering. That's what 'God's Problem" is about.

    In his book he discusses the Bibles justifications for suffering. Human suffering is probably one of the most difficult issues to understand since it fly's in the face of a God who is supposed to be all knowing, all powerful, yet completely loving and benevolent to His creation, if that is so why are there genocides, natural disasters, wars, epidemics, and the usual suffering involved in living and dying? One only needs to look around to find that evil people often thrive and the righteous often suffer.

    In my early years as a Witness I read William Shirer's classic "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." By focusing on a narrow span of history and looking at the impact on God's once 'chosen ones' the Jews and Jehovah's Witnesses in Hitlers concentration camps I found it impossible to reconcile the human suffering involved. How do we square this while maintaining faith? I was unable to do so and so separated myself from the concept of a loving god. I firmly believe that many if not most non-belivers would site human suffering as their own personel deal breaker.

    Ehrman, lists the Bibles justifications for suffering. The first (and main) rationale in the Old Testament is God's punishment for sin. God makes His people suffer when they don't obey and not just a little slap on the wrist. There are a lot of punishments handed out for 'disobedience', droughts, pestilence, war, famine, and destruction. God the punisher.

    The second rationale for suffering from the Old Testament is man's inhumanity to man. God doesn't inflict this one personally, but he allows it to happen and even encourages it despite many prayers and supplications.

    The third rationale - for some biblical authors- suffering has a positive and redemptive aspect to it - suffering builds character.

    The fourth rationale - suffering can be inflicted by God as a test of your faith. Job is the prime example of this.

    The fifth rationale, the apocalyptic approach, was popular during Jesus' day, and in fact, Jesus and John the Baptist were both cut from this mold. Suffering is caused by the forces of evil and God is not responsible. When the end comes, the tables will turn, God will make things right, and the meek will inherit the earth. Of course the billions now living will have been slaughtered.

    Well it's been almost 2,000 years since Jesus died and human suffering has gotten worse as wars have become more horrific and the world more populated. None of the bible's justifications makes any real sense to me. Contrast god's indifference to imperfect man. We can and do show empathy, we do try to stop evil people from hurting others. We even have laws like the good Samaritan law that calls for us to render some help or assistance even if it's only dialing 911. It would be helpful if god had a 911 number to call, the prayer thing doesn't seem to be getting through.

    Is god a monster who is indifferent to human suffering? Is god powerless to do anything about it? Or is god too busy elsewhere? Is he/she or It an Alien long gone? A galactic Johnny Appleseed who sprinkled some DNA around, came back a few times to check on the crop and then left?

    God's indifference to human suffering is the biggest stumbling ever. For many of us non believers it has proved to be the ultimate deal breaker.

    Final note: What god didn't do an ex witness did. The Allied forces liberated the concentration camps. They were under the command of a five star general ....... Dwight Eisenhower. Eisenhower had been raised a JW until he terminated his association and decided on West Point and a career in the military and then became the President of the United States. Let's hear if for an apostate!

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    Thanks for your commends PSacramento and Giordano.

    Quoting from is book Jesus interropted

    "I have never, in print or in an interview, indicated that I lost my Christian faith because of textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament. As I explain in chapter 8 (and discuss in my book God’s Problem, HarperOne, 2008), it was the problem of suffering that eventually led me to become an agnostic."

    "Two of the more intelligent critiques on the web are by Daniel Wallace, “The Gospel According to Bart,” at http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=4000, and Ben Witherington, “Misanalyzing Text Criticism—Bart Ehrman’s ‘Misquoting Jesus,’”at http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/03/misanalyzing-text-criticism-bart.html. In addition, three books were published in response from conservative perspectives:Dillon Burroughs, Misquotes in Misquoting Jesus: Why You Can Still Believe (Ann Arbor: Nimble Books, 2006); Timothy Paul Jones, Misquoting Truth: A Guide to the Fallacies in Bart Ehrman’s Misquoting Jesus (Downer’s Grove, IL: Inter varsity Press, 2007); and Nicholas Perrin, Lost in Transmission: What We Can Know About the Words of Jesus (New York: Thomas Nelson, 2008)."

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