My story/Proof of cross?

by FifthOfNovember 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  jamiebowers

  Welcome!
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  Broken Promises

  Hello, and welcome! I also find the universe a fascinating subject.
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  VampireDCLXV

  I bid you welcome, FifthOfNovember.

  I whole-heartedly agree with you about how the forces in the universe are so perfectly balanced and finely tuned. To say that it just happened to be that way makes no sense to me either. The laws of probability speak against that.

  Your musings about the crucifix are pretty interesting too...

  Stick around and don't be a stranger. Please do more here than just lurk.

  Take care...

  V665
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  OnTheWayOut

  Welcome. I think on youtube, The Thinking Atheist has a video similar to your thoughts on conditions being perfect for "life as we know it."

  Of course if the conditions here were needed for life, they probably existed on a handful or more of planets.

  Plus, maybe life that's completely different could have existed if some of the conditions were altered.
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  tenyearsafter

  Thanks FofN...you sound like a very intelligent person, and you will find many interesting subjects as you continue to look intently at "the deeper things"! (pardon my WT cliche reference...LOL). The important thing is that you are exercising your critical think abilities, and to the WTS that is the equivalent of exposing a vampire to direct sunlight!! Keep up the good work!
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  besty

  http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/jesus/did-jesus-die-on-a-cross-or-a-stake.html

  http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/jesus/the-facts-on-crucifixion-stauros-and-the-torture-stake.html

  'course you may want to investigate the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus before devoting too much time to the manner of his death....just saying...
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  Rocky528

  It would seem much more reasonable that he carried a lighter cross beam to the execution site where the upright pole was already buried and in place.

  I saw a National Geographic special around Easter of this year that indicated exactly that.
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  FifthOfNovember

  I agree besty, I did the research to prove to myself that the organization isn't as right as they seem to think.
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  Leolaia

  Here is my take on this subject.

  The main thing to keep in mind is that the time when the word stauros "meant merely an upright stake, or pale" was a time prior to the adoption of crucifixion as a means of execution from the Persians (so it is used strictly in this sense in Homer). Then the word developed a specialized sense referring to a form of execution (the nailing or tying a person while alive to a wooden apparatus). That happened way back in the Persian period but especially in the Hellenistic era when crucifixion was widely practiced by Greeks, Phoenicians, and Romans. The word didn't refer to any one particular kind of apparatus because crucifixion itself was highly variable locally and didn't have any standard form. The term was used according to the device's function (as an execution apparatus), not according to its shape (which could be whatever the executioner wanted). It is not until the time of the Roman Empire when the crossbeam (which the Romans called the patibulum, orginally the name for a bar used to prop doors open) became popular, and the Romans added to crucifixion a ritual which involved the condemned carrying the patibulum throughout the city (a practice that had an independent origin in early Roman society). Since the word stauros already referred to cruxifixion in any of its forms, there was no "change in meaning" when the word came to refer to the apparatus used by the Romans that included the patibulum. But we know from texts from the first and second centuries AD that the crucifixion involving crossbeams had become very popular, perhaps even standard. It was at this time when crucifixion was tantamount to the stretching of one's arms on a patibulum, that the bearing of the device prior to execution was common (even in Judea, as shown in the fact that Jesus used an aphorism likening it to daily life), and that the stauros was in general likened to being similar to the letter T or a ship's mast in shape. These are indicators that crossbeams were in general use in Roman crucifixion by this time. In contrast, the Society has instead promoted the idea that the word stauros did not refer to a cross-shaped device until the time of Constantine in the fourth century AD!

  With respect to the form of Jesus' stauros, tenyearsafter has the right idea. The strongest indicator that it included a crossbeam is the reference to stauros-bearing in the gospels. Not only is it impractical for the prisoner to carry the long pole (with respect to its weight distribution and the condition of the prisoner), but it just isn't what the Romans were known for doing. The Romans had a long-standing practice of making the prisoner or slave carry the patibulum. The description of stauros-bearing (Greek did not have a separate word to refer to the patibulum, as did Latin) in the gospels fits very well with what is found elsewhere.

  Still because ancient sources, including the gospels, are usually devoid of details, one cannot be certain whether Jesus' stauros is conceptualized in the gospels as including a crossbeam (as is clearly indicated in the apostolic fathers and the early church fathers). Rather it is best imo to say that this is the most probable conclusion on the basis of the literary evidence. The Society makes the opposite determination.

  As many have pointed out, one wonders why the Society makes such a big deal of this issue. In part, the insistence adds one more thing that makes JWs different from other Christians. It also reflects the Society's allergic stance towards things that smack of "paganism". In particular, the Society confuses the issue of whether Jesus died on a two-beamed execution apparatus with the use of the cross as a religious symbol in many different faiths (which should not be surprising since the intersection of two lines is a very basic geometric shape which could be independently utilized by any human culture). Since the Society claims that Christendom's use of the cross as a symbol derives from paganism and since they claim that the idea that Jesus died on a cross is derivative of the former, evidence that the cross is used as a religious symbol becomes part of the argumentation that Jesus did not die on a cross.

  BTW, welcome to the forum! :)
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  Rocky528

  Stunning research L....I'm talking about a TV show I saw and then this, not to mention the here link at the beginning. Very impressive indeed.