THE ABSOLUTE WORST CONGREGATION EVER

by You Know 28 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    YouKnow,

    Sadly, you seem to thing that first Century Christian congregations were somehow structured like modern-day Jehovah's Witness congregations. Sorry! No time cards, thus no "pioneer" distinctions, no scores of pre-event questions for baptism ("letting" them get baptized?! -- more like "Do you believe Jesus Christ was the living Son of God? Do you believe his resurrection paved the way to reconciliation with God?" Then, "into the river you go, Sis!"), and no communion meal once a year, either! And, gee, the brothers took their disputes before the local civil authorities, how positively awful!!! -- maybe because the local bishops and presbyters were incompetents? And the public might actually find out that the Christians weren't actually behaving like Christians? How scandalous!!! And actually, how the apostle Paul ENDED his first letter to the Corinthians was with a prayer and a loving attitude:

    "May the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus be with YOU." (Not a judicial committee despite your human flaws!) and "May my love be with all of YOU in union with Christ Jesus." -- 1 Cor. 16:23,24.

    outnfree

    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden

  • Mindchild
    Mindchild

    Hmmm, I think the congregation some people these days call "Bethel" can give it a good run for the money. Let me think now, does mass homosexuality count? How about insanity? Murdering people with their stupid ideologies? Ruining people's lives by allowing dangerous sex offenders to remain in their midst? I think I would rather go live with the Soprano's than the Brooklyn Boys...they are pussycats compared to that tough gang.

    Skipper

  • Utopiano Reformato
    Utopiano Reformato

    We all know about situations in congregations we once attended. However, I do not know of anyone particular congregation with as many problems as Corinth. My experience may be limited compared to others.

    However, the "Percy Chapman" scandal and the "Leo Greenlees" scandal are enough to shock anyone religious. How does YOUKNOW feel about those situations?

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Whether You Know realizes it or not, he has just shown that one of the major teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses is in error. JWs teach that during the lifetime of the apostles the Christian congregations were substantially different than today's Churches. And that only after their deaths did a corruption of Christianity take place. But as you know has shown, that is not the case. The fact is, the few true Christians in the Corinthian congregation which You Know mentioned by staying in their troubled congregations helped to fulfill Christ's prophecy of "the wheat and the weeds." For, as You Know has shown, they truly were "wheat" in a field of "weeds." (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43)

    The fact is, the "Churches of Christendom" which exist in our day, congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses included among them, are no different than the congregations that existed in the first century during the lifetime of the apostles. Just read what Jesus Christ Himself told John to write to seven churches in Revelation chapters two and three. Christ had much to rebuke some members of those churches for, such as tolerating sexual immorality, idolatry and false teachings, as all churches do today. (For JWs that means tolerating child molesters, governing body worship, and I'll let You Know fill in the false teachings.) But Christ also commended other members of those same seven churches for things such as showing love to others and maintaining their faith in Him under very difficult circumstances. Christ did not tell His faithful servants to "get out" of those largely corrupt churches. He commended them for the good work they were able to do for Him and for their fellow believers, despite the fact that they had so many "weeds" around them.

    Jehovah's Witnesses tell us things are different today. They say that the "churches of Christendom" are much worse than the churches of the first century. And they say God has now branded them as "Babylon the Great" and tells us to "get out of her." They say God has now provided a safe haven for true Christians to run to. They say that safe haven is your local congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus said that the wheat and the weeds should grow together until the time of the harvest. He said they should not be removed from the weedy field anytime sooner. And He told us the harvest was the time when the weeds will be pulled out of the field and destroyed.

    Does this mean that all Christians are required to stay in whatever church group they first joined? No, it does not. But it does mean Christians should be willing to do as much good as they can among a body of professed believers which they can see contains both true and false Christians, a body they believe they themselves can help, without having their own relationship with God ruined.

    So what does Revelation mean when it says to "Get out" of "Babylon the Great"? (Rev. 18) To answer this question we have to first identify "Babylon the Great." Revelation is a book of symbolisms which are interpreted by different people in different ways. JWs tell us "Babylon the Great" represents "the world empire of false religion" as it now exists. However, I believe they are wrong. Babylon was a nation that was filled with false religious practices and which also, at one time, enslaved God's people. Today God's people are Christians. Who enslaves Christians today? Legalistic churches. Jehovah's Witnesses are certainly among this group. For Christian freedom is almost nonexistent among JWs. You can't do this. You must do this. You can't do this. You must do this. You can't do this. You get the picture.

    But how can JWs be a part of Babylon the Great? Doesn't she "commit fornication with the kings of the earth?" Yes, she does. And don't JWs, for the most part, avoid political involvements? Yes, they do. But that is now. Who says "Babylon the Great" now exists? Revelation indicates "Babylon the Great" will exist at the time of Christ's return when He executes judgment against her. We have no idea if she will exist much sooner than that time. That being the case, JWs may yet choose to "commit fornication with the kings of the earth" in God's eyes shortly before Christ's return. Which would not be surprising considering what they were already willing to do just to gain access to the U.N. library. And when and if they do, they will become a part of "Babylon the Great" just as surely as all the other Christian churches which then choose to support world governments as they take a stand against God. JWs are already one step ahead of many Christian churches in becoming a part of "Babylon the Great." For they now have the "enslaving God's people" part down better than anyone else.

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hello,

    I have to say that I agree with YK.

    Threads that encourage the naming of bad elders, congregations etc. are at the least childish and at the worst libelous. Those that accuse others of child abuse without evidence put Simon in a very dangerous position.

    If we truly believe that JW's have been cleverly drawn into a cult, then surely pity and concern should motivate our threads regarding those trapped in it.

    I am quite sure that for as many who decry the personality of ‘elder xxxx’ as monstrous, as many can be found who would have a good word to say about his personality. This is the nature of the human condition, and has little to do with religion.

    Those who bath in the glory of attacking the personalities of people who are not here to defend themselves, or present their own position on an issue, are not doing themselves or the XJW cause any favors.

    Let us remember that a few dozen men are responsible for the propagation of the WTS system. It would be far more useful if we could discuss ways of reaching these people with our cause than sneering at and bullying the JW soft target, who is probably for the most part a decent person trapped in indecent system.

    Best regards - HS

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    Wait, wait, wait, Hilary!

    While I agree that the thread on "Worst Elders, CO, DOs" was a bad idea ... in fact I thought it might be refreshing for a change to have a thread remembering the BEST elders we know/knew ... shouldn't your response be on that other thread? (Or perhaps, you, like I, thought not to respond there so that it could die as quick a death as possible?)

    And I DO understand that YouKnow was making a point that ALL Christian congregations have their faults and that we shouldn't be surprised that this is so.

    Nonetheless, I think YouKnow has the mistaken idea that the Witnesses' organizational structure to meetings and ministry really DOES reflect the first century congregation's way of worship. That is why his analogies fall flat, even if his purpose in making them is clear.

    outnfree

    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Hello Out,

    Wait, wait, wait, Hilary!
    lol. You obviously think I have a wait problem!

    Thank you for your comments Outnfree.

    If I read YK correctly, he was attempting to show that if it was conceivable for a 'thread' to have been started in the C1st calling for comments on congregations, they would not have read very differently from the comments on one or two threads regarding congregations and elders that are active at the moment. He drew the thoughts in those threads together to make a point in this thread, and imho a valid one, albeit the embellishments may not suit all our different views of what true Christianity really was, and really is. That is why I posted my thoughts on this thread.

    As to a proposed thread highlighting the 'best elders', well, 'best' is in the eye of the beholder, just as 'worst' is, which was my point in suggesting that two viewpoints on these issues are needed to make one informed choice. Any other option imho, is unfair and arguably dangerous when names are being publicised.

    Kindest regards - HS

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    I have to say that I have met both good and wonderful elders that remember that they are a human first and treat you with respect and dignity. I believe these elders mean well but are stuck and blinded by the organization. Then on the other side I have met my share of elders that is self seeking, egotistic, power hungry and treats everyone one with contempt. They don't care that we are a humans and have our strength and weaknesses. The only thing I question is that if the JW's are really spirit directed, how can they appoint these type of individuals to represent their "Divine organization"?

  • ElijahTheThird
    ElijahTheThird

    ,,, I am reminded of the words, "get out while the gettin is good!" or was it "get out of her my people if you do not want to share in what is coming down." ,,, any way words to that effect.

    I agree, if the water is muddy, don't drink!
    If the food is bland and with out salt, don't eat.

    Norval, and some good posts here I think.

  • You Know
    You Know

    Here you go Jerome. Call it the Best of / You Know.

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