Just had a brain fart. I know that it is said that Jesus died and was then resurrected and that we all have that possibility. What is it that survives to be resurrected. i know, I know. Jehovah remembers us. But what is it that he remembers. That which survives as a memory is "something". Is it the soul, the spirit as the breath of life. And what is that?
is the soul mortal biblically speaking
by therevealer 15 Replies latest jw friends
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wobble
I do not know of anywhere in the Bible where it even hints that the soul dies, unless Almighty God exercises judgement and "kills the soul" as Jesus says.
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Leolaia
See my long post on this page for a lengthy discussion:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/173215/2/Question-for-our-scholars
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therevealer
I would like to bring this to the top cuz of Leolaia's link. And to Inkie if he still exists, don't be so rude till you know of what you speak.
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jonathan dough
Factfinder: Ezekiel 18:4- Jws are right about some things.
Not about Eze 18:4.
Ezekiel 18:4 appears to be the crown jewel in the Jehovah's Witnesses' annihilationist argument. The prophet Ezekiel wrote in part that “The soul (nephesh) that is sinning – it itself will die” (“only the one who sins shall die,” NAB). The Jehovah's Witnesses imply that traditionalists are wrong believing the soul (nephesh) is an immaterial spiritual entity because it can die, which also would mean it cannot be immortal. But they are reading too much (or not enough) into this sentence and attribute an interpretation to mainstream Christians that isn't there. Standing back and placing verse 4 into context, it is apparent that chapter 18 deals with personal responsibility. Contrasted with the death of the sinner, a virtuous man shall “surely live” (Ezekiel 18:9). The people shall not be punished for their ancestors' sins, only their own (NAB, notes 18,2) [… his death shall be his own fault]. Verse 18 reads, a virtuous man “shall not die for the sins of his father.” Here, Ezekiel was not making a sweeping statement that all men die, nor was he making a statement that a nephesh (soul) cannot under any circumstances refer to the immortal soul simply because the soul (nephesh) that sins dies. If that were true it would actually make the case for immortality because according to chapter 18 the soul that does not sin does not die if one were to take their argument to its logical conclusion.
We can safely assume, therefore, that death in 18:4 refers foremost to a physical death as punishment for particular sins because, after all, all men die a mortal death, but more importantly, Ezekiel lists the kinds of sins God had in mind which warrant death under the Mosaic Law to which he was referring.
The Hebrew word here for death is muwth (4191) “which is used of physical death.” (Vine's at 151). It can also refer to eventual, natural mortality, and a spiritual death. God told “man that he will surely die if he eats of the forbidden fruit. (Genesis 2:17). “When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, both spiritual and physical death came upon Adam and Eve and their descendants (cf. Rom 5:12). They experienced spiritual death immediately” (Vine's at 151).
God's declaration at Ezekiel 18:1-32 that each man is responsible for his own sins, and that person alone would deserve punishment – which is the core theme of chapter18 – was emphasized in verses 10-13 in the extreme with specific examples of crimes under the Mosaic Law deserving of death, with the exception of theft, robbery and variants thereof such as failure to return a pledge and usury. Crimes specifically deserving death were murder (Numbers 35:16), eating on the mountains (a form of idol worship (Exodus 22:20), defiling a wife (Leviticus 20:10), oppressing the poor and needy (thereby endangering their lives) (Exodus 21-29) such as harming orphans and widows (a term of art for all helpless, needy and destitute (Exodus 22:20-23), or any “abominable thing,” - a wide-ranging concept that may include, but is not limited to, blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16; 1 Kings 21:10), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), and witchcraft (Exodus 22:18).
By no means is this an exhaustive list of those crimes for which each individual is held personally accountable pursuant to chapter 18. The fact that theft and robbery, etc., are not punishable by death is no reason to assume the soul (nephesh) which sins and dies refers to the extinction of the immortal soul as the Jehovah's Witnesses would have you believe. To the contrary; if anything, it illustrates that lesser real-time crimes and sins are included in the doctrine of personal responsibility. Otherwise, a man would not be personally responsible for his own lesser sins, which is illogical and defies the spirit of God's law.
While death, or muwth, refers to physical death, which reasonably presumes inclusion of lesser sins and crimes, here it also refers to a spiritual death, however that may be defined; a cutting off or separation from God. After all, Paul was very succinct when he wrote that neither adulterers, thieves or robbers, and many others, will inherit God's kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:10), thereby dying a death of unimaginable severity. Nothing can logically be inferred in Ezekiel 18:1-4 that God was stating that disembodied, immaterial souls don't exist or survive a person's death. He was not saying that souls aren't immortal because they die and are thus extinguished. To the contrary, the message throughout the Old and New Testament is crystal clear. A conscious, immaterial spiritual entity, a man's ego or self, alternatively called shades, souls or spirits, survives death and immediately is transferred to the intermediate state of the after life of the nether world awaiting reunion with one's resurrected body. They are not annihilated. They are not made extinct as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach.
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Ding
Like the thread on Ecclesiates 9:5, this illustrates the danger of ripping a verse out of context and making it the be-all-and-end-all of one's doctrine.
As with any source, determining the author's view on any subject requires the reader to consider all the passages that bear on the topic, not just one sentence or phrase.