Nobody wants to live in paradise

by eric356 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • eric356
    eric356

    I've got some probably-not-so-original musings about why nobody would actually want to "live forever on a paradise Earth." These are the sorts of things that probably make every JW kid (or adult) have some doubts, because the problems are so obvious. The standard JW answer of "It doesn't say in the Bible what will happen, we'll see when we get there" or "wait for the new scrolls to be opened" are totally inadequate because the problems involve the very concept of eternal life in paradise. The WT recommends against "speculation", but this rings hypocritical, since pretty much every publication they've ever printed involves promises and speculation about how great the New World will be. So...

    1. What does "perfect human" actually mean? Would we be incapable of making mistakes? Would I never stub my toe, or mispronounce a word, or miss a basketball shot? This question is exemplified by the perennial DC question of "What's one thing you want to do in the paradise?" to which the answer is "I want to learn to play the piano/violin/etc." If we are perfect, wouldn't that imply that we could just observe someone playing an instrument and instantly be able to play it? After all, the time spent learning is, by definition, the time spent making mistakes and eliminating them through practice. If you can't make mistakes, then you learn everything upon first exposure. This problem is reinforced by having perfect memory. If everything you ever read, saw, or heard could be perfectly remembered, learning would be instantaneous. The WT always says that we could never get bored in the new system, because there's so many things to learn and do. But if stuff isn't difficult to do because all mental and physical faculties are without fault, then it seems you could learn everything relatively quickly (especially compared to eternity, where even the most incompetent person could learn everything because he has infinite time to practice). Plus, why do something if it isn't difficult to do? Most adults wouldn't be satisfied playing children's games that are easy to master for even a few minutes. What's the point? I don't see where personal fulfillment would come from. Most people enjoy doing something that challenges them, where they have to work hard to avoid making errors.

    Further, is the model of "perfection" one thing? That is, is there basically one type of perfect human, or many types? It seems difficult to imagine more than one type of perfect human, because all the differences that exist between people now are related to their differing mental and physical abilities. Each person is better at some things, and worse at others. If everyone is perfect at everything, where is the distinction? If everyone wants to play the violin, and everyone therefore does learn to play it perfectly, what's so great about you? People's lives are defined in large part by the things they like and devote attention to. But if everyone can be good at everything, where's the variety or uniqueness to be found? In the context of eternity, it seems even worse. After the first billion years, everyone will have pretty much done everything that anyone else has done. Who wants to talk to a bunch of people who already know everything you do, and you know everything they do?

    This objection can basically be summed up as the unescapable boredom and uniformity of eternal life as a perfect human surrounded by other perfect humans.

    2. Perfection destroys the human experience. Everyday life is full of making mistakes, following whims and impulses, and being helped by or helping other people. If we are perfect, with unerring judgement and unerring abilities, there's no room for any of this. Sure, life would be orderly and rational, which is good, but would it be interesting? Perfect minds and bodies would basically turn humans into superbeings whose experience we couldn't possibly imagine. Perhaps the lives of these superbeings would be great and wonderful beyond what I can contemplate. But why do I care? I'm a human, with human desires, inclinations, and goals. I'm not really enticed by the things that would motivate a perfect superbeing. Just as a dog doesn't care about fine music or scientific knowledge, what reason do I have NOW for wanting to be a superbeing in the future?

    Even if I knew I would be a superbeing at some future time, is that superbeing even "me" in any recognizable way? If you take "me" and effectively eliminate all of my distinguishing talents and faults (as explained above) and then also change all of my human desires with those worthy of a "perfect" human, am I even "me" anymore? Who cares about living forever in the future if the person "I" am now won't survive the process of becoming perfect? I could care less if some version of "me" who doesn't share any of my personal qualities survives in the future, no matter how great that future is.

    This also touches on the issue of memory of the past in the New System. Would people remember their past life? Would they mourn all the terrible, evil unbelievers who didn't survive to make it to Paradise? It seems like all the survivors would have to be psychopaths not to feel sorry for all those killed (that one infamous Bethel talk about Armageddon seems to confim this) . Also, would we forget our common human heritage, the great cultural, artistic, and intellectual achievements of the past? It seems that according to the WT, all of these things should be hated as part of the "Old System of Things." But is any JW really comfortable with many of the things they hold dear now being destroyed? If you like classical music, would you be fine with all of the great works of the past masters being destroyed because they came from the Old System? If you suddenly became fine with this once the New System arrived, are you really the same person as you were before? If you like famous works of art or literature, or classic cars, or great wine from historic vineyards, do you really want all of that to be destroyed? Again, if the "you" that enters Paradise has no problem with everything Old being wiped out, is it really "you" at all?

    3. Everything the WT describes happening in Paradise is mundane and menial. Who wants to live, even with perfect health, as a farmer growing vegetables for eternity? And even if some people would enjoy this, surely not everyone would. Who wants to spend eternity praising God every day and reminding him how great he is? It seems like just an idealized version of feudalism, where the serfs worship the king for the opportunity to cultivate his land. Sure, the serfs are "perfect" in this instance, but they're still just serfs.

    Seriously, after cleaning up all the dead bodies, tearing down all the remnants of evil modern society, cleaning up the pollution, petting lions, and building houses for Bible characters, what do JWs actually think they're going to do? If the Paradise is like the Garden of Eden, humans would be returned to a state of ignorance. Will there be philosophers in the New System, or would this be considered a challenge to Gods singular privilege to knowledge of higher things?

    What about great acts of engineering? Will JWs live forever as primitive farmers, or will they have to recreate and supercede modern technology, but in a "perfect" way? Will God ever feel threatened by the building projects of perfect humans, like he was by the Tower of Babel? The WT does talk about how JWs will get to learn about all of God's works and rejoice in "spiritual knowledge". But what about humans striving, and exploring, and challenging convention? Won't all of this be destroyed to make them servants only to God's will? Who wants a life that only consists of fulfilling another person's will?

    4. The whole live forever/family/sex thing. If everyone lives forever, there can't be new children or the Earth will quickly be over populated. Excluding space colonization (I'll get to that later), there can't be any procreation. And if there isn't any procreation, doesn't that remove one of the defining human experiences, the raising of children? What does it mean to have a mother, a father, or a family if everyone lives forever and no new children are born? Do you ever become a real adult if your parents are always around? Also, because everyone is the same "age", there's nothing to learn from past generations.

    And even without children, is there marriage in the New System? What about romantic love and sex? These are core aspects of human existence, and to remove them makes whoever inhabits the Paradise not really human at all. Could you really love one person for eternity, or would that get old pretty fast? If you got new lovers occasionally, wouldn't you eventually run out of people over an eternity? I don't see the JW God making the New System are free-love orgy, though that might make the most sense in this case.

    Those are some of my thoughts. If you've got any ideas I'd like to hear them. Also, I'd like to hear any of the crazy speculation about the New System you heard from JWs in the past. I remember:

    People will all speak ancient Hebrew

    People won't speak at all, but communicate telepathically

    People will walk everywhere (like Jesus?) because with an eternity on our hands, there's no reason to get anywhere quickly

    People will keep having kids, but humans will continually spread out into the universe and populate other planets

    People will come sexless like angels (except apparently the angels that though human women were hot and had sex with them before Noah)

    People will be able to fly everywhere / teleportation

  • moshe
    moshe

    The WT deliberately avoids going into much detail about how the new world will operate, lest the JWs realize this scheme can't work.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Look at the bright side:

    1. No more field service.

    2. No more WT publications to read ?

    3. No more taxes.

    4. No more "Armageddon is just around the corner" hype

  • LostGeneration
    LostGeneration

    The whole concept of perfection joined with free will is impossible for me to accept. If everyone is perfect (and cannot) sin then how in the world is there any free will.

    For example, if Adam and Eve had not sinned then they would be in theory living today. But along the line some of their offspring would have sinned, even down to this day. So what happens? Do they die off slowly while everyone else stays young?

    Same would hold true in JW paradise. Their take is that after 1000 years everyone left is perfect, but they still have free will. So after say 100,000,000,000 years of growing carrots and petting pandas, at least a few of them are gonna say "Screw it" and start having sex outside of WT rules right? Then what? Time to start killing them off too?

    I enjoyed your questions....all valid points that no JW could honestly answer.

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    For one thing , I ain't lookin' forward to their rendition of paradise

    like I said plenty of times before, I ain't no strick vegetarian here or in any other place.

    In all of thier pics of paradise all you see is fruits and vegetables. Don't get me wrong

    I like those things too, But I'm from the south, and when I cook my greens and beans

    I like to flavor them with some Hog jowl or ham hock. And I don't want to be pettin' no

    cow when I'd rather be enjoyin' a plate of beef tips and gravy with a nice hot biscuit

    they can keep their so called paradise. I don't want it

  • GrandmaJones
    GrandmaJones

    Gee, that was something that I could always picture myself in and I just loved it! I pictured paradise as a stimulating world where new things were constantly developed, and improvements to life steadily emerging. I never thought of it literally, like I would be sitting under a fig tree, and having to build my own house. I don't have trouble believing that new inventions and conveniences have an end. Just look at the comforts and improvements in the last couple of hundred years. I thought we would invent fabulous new forms of transportation, and perfection didn't mean being all alike. Everyone would work at jobs they loved, and if you stopped loving it, you moved on to something else.

    I never get bored. There is always entertaining things going on in my own head. (I am thinking of getting medical help for that - lol) I really can't imagine the possibility of living forever and being bored or restless.

    That's what I thought. I will miss that dream. Really....

  • simon17
    simon17

    Not that I believe in paradise but I believe some of your points are misconceived.

    JW Perfection does not mean "Not making mistakes" but "Not having sin". So you can still stutter or miss basketball shots or take years to learn to play piano. But you're not going to crave enjoyment from things that are sinful, like violence and screwing your wife's best friend, or stealing, etc. That DOES get linked to a kind of physical perfection (i.e., not sickness, death, reading glasses, etc). Why? That is because man originally didn't have those things in his perfect state and only DID have them BECAUSE OF sin. Thats a strange linkage, I know. You still have pain receptors though, so you can still stub your toe and break your arm (?) but you wouldn't have the endemic physical problems.

    So some of your problems I dont really see being as inconsistent with JW doctrine (although they are absurd).

    Also the problems with boredom I dont think are very severe. Would you trade another 20 years of good health if it meant being stuck in your job but able to liveon with your family? I am sure you would. Just because a portion of your productive life is mundane, it doesn't make the rest of the life around you less (potentially) magical.

    The children/sex is a problem. There are just so many other obvious problems that are much more physical in nature though I think.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    I think they know that it is a problem they'll never have to address.

    Thus there is no need to teach post-Armageddon survival methods, corpse disposal methods, civil engineering, water purification, agriculture, field medicine or any of the myriad other resonable consequences should their fantasy Armageddon ever arrive.

    Jehovah will miraculously feed the multitudes with SPAM that is beyond its "good until" date. Mmmm-mmm!

    Oh, wait, yeah, they can quick-build Kingdom Halls housing barracks. No need for privacy - boys over here, girls over there. We have too much work to do to even begin thinking about repopulating the world. Put your flesh on hold, Brothers and Sisters. You have eternity.

    ...and the senile Bethel eunichs smiled, and it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, another dreadful dday begins...

    As for the fantasy of livng in the millionaire's house up on the hill - how much fun would that be with no electrictiy or running water or sewer service? ...and you think the Israelites grumbled?

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    I think the Tibetan book of the Dead has it right when it discourages jumping back into the rebirth cycle. That seems to be a good solution the problems that endless life would entail. Just stay in the pure timeless awareness,,and don't get sucked into the recycling machine by lusty human instincts and thoughts,, and if your a hopeless case and are being sucked down then choose a really good next life and choose it carefully.

  • wasblind
    wasblind

    I'm LOL @ Nathan Natas

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