by gravedancer 19 Replies latest jw friends
Just a short question which probably was raised before.
The favorite argument of creationists: since there is such abundant complexity in the world around us and within us - doesn't this point point to design and therefore a designer (i.e. God)?
Much info abounds on both sides of the answers to the question. What are your thoughts? What good info have you read or can you reference to support your arguments?
The simple fact is that humans know almost nothing about all of the possible ways in which matter can be arranged in some "sensible" way so as to produce "ordered complexity", of which life is but a tiny subset. Therefore no one can say, on a theoretical basis, what is or is not possible. We can say that certain things are possible because we observe them, but that's as far as we can go.
The efforts of some creationists to invoke what they call "intelligent design" ideas, therefore, boil down to "I can't conceive that this is true; therefore it isn't" type arguments, which are often called "arguments from ignorance". The idea can be illustrated by a 19th-century religionist saying, "I can't conceive how 500 people at a time could fly at 900 kilometers an hour; therefore God does not want humans to fly."
AlanF
GD,
You can't have purpose without intelligence,and.
You can't have intelligence without intelligence.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Hi Grave: Yes, that is one of the main arguments of creationsists. What I have found in various studies is that evoluton does exist. There are serious gaps in understanding how certian micro-biological developments could have taken place. There are some micro systems in our bodies, for example, that are what has been termed 'irreducibly-complex' and will not work with even one component missing. And, there is no way known to science just how these systems and components could have formed. Evolutionary theory just cannot explain everything.
On the other hand there are serious flaws and gaps in many of the creationists arguments. What I find interesting is that creationists often miss the really good scientific arguments that could build their case, in favor of junk rationalizations and dishonest science. None of the arguments they have advanced so far, unfortunately for them, can prove God's existence. http://www.talkorigins.com is a good site, and there are others.
Also, you might read the book Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe. He is a Biochemist. He did a very nice job in exposing serious holes in our current understanding of evolution. His explanation of the complex system involved in blood clotting is one excellent example. Another is the formation of certain cells. He does not use this to conclude that there is a God or intelligent designer. He only offers arguments from a scientific perspective about the problems with evolution.
gravedancer wrote:
doesn't this point .. to design
No. It does not point to that.
Here is why - human perception of, and instinct as to, what is "pointed to" is based on the direct, first-hand observations we repeatedly make during our own existences, and those phenomena closely enough related thereto for us to understand the changes associated with them.
So we "see" things over a span of a few tens of years - maybe a hundred years or so.
In contrast, the mechanics of evolution involves complex processes that - in fits and starts, perhaps, for some of them - stretch over THOUSANDS OF MILLIONS OF YEARS.
What may be a wildly improbable event over a short period may be a dead cert over a sufficiently long one. One does not need to understand quantum mechanics to understand this.
Therefore, relying on our instinct to judge attributability on such enormous time scales is extrapolating beyond the outlandish to the downright absurd!
End of argument.
Any further contribution to this thread is, in my opinion, redundant. Which is, of course, invitational.
--
Focus
(Answers Class)
Focus,
Your soooooo smart!
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Gravedancer, you should read the book "Finding Darwin's God", by Kenneth Miller:
He completely debunks Behe and other neo-creationists, like Johnson.
As to your specific question "since there is such abundant complexity in the world around us and within us - doesn't this point to design and therefore a designer (i.e. God)?", the answer is YES, there was a designer. The identity of that designer was uncovered about 150 years ago by someone called Charles Darwin.
Joseph Joachim,
an overly-enthusiastic pundit of borderline reality
If you're so smart, what're you doin' here? No offense Simon.
Just kidding.
AlanF wrote:
The idea can be illustrated by a 19th-century religionist saying, "I can't conceive how 500 people at a time could fly at 900 kilometers an hour; therefore God does not want humans to fly."
Now, one has to monitor this fellow very closely! You see, while maligning some unspecified 19th century faith, and not attacking the Watchtower explicitly, a habitual malefactor effectively "whitewashes by omission" (by blackening the surroundings) this filthy Cult!
Leave aside the alleged words of a 19th century religionist - I'll FOCUS on what an established "religion" officially taught right plumb in the middle of the 20th century! Here:
"Man on earth can no more get rid of these demonic 'heavens' (the organization of wicked spirits) than man can by airplane or rockets or other means get up above the air envelope which is about our earthly globe and in which man breathes."
And who uttered those words of wisdom, right at the time Wernher (also Werner) von Braun and others were perfecting rockets to do exactly that which the source quoted above so boldly declared was impossible?
The Watchtower, of course!
In the 1943 publication, 'The Truth Shall Make You Free', on page 285. """Truth""" indeed!
AF, watch it! Your above words were sheer provocation, and you know it - testing the line, so to speak! See Deut. 6:16.
--
Focus
(Massah? Massa! Class)
It’s sad to observe that even when a creationist speaks facts, the supposedly more enlightened evolutionists can’t seem to get past his own prejudices to see and appreciate the one speaking truth. The statement “ordered complexity necessitates design” is not a desperate clarion call of creationists, it is and observable occurrence in everyday life, it is a fact like it or not.
I ask you, can a watch create itself? No. Can a house be without a maker? No. So why would anyone believe that even more complex devices such as cells, organs, and complex life forms come about without a driving and directing force, a grand designer? When one computes the odds of this occurring on its own, the possibility of this happening approaches near impossibility.
Therefore in conclusion, I believe it is only fair that evolutionists apologize to the creationist community for not showing due honor and respect to the grand designer and driving force behind the creation of all known life forms.
And a note to the creationists, you have correctly pointed to the existence of the grand designer, however you seem to have a small problem spelling and pronouncing the creators name.
The name is “Natural Selection”, the most powerful designing force in the universe.
Freeman
