Flood Legends "Proof" of Global Flood...

by AlanF 61 Replies latest jw friends

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Seeker, the early Christians were faced with the same quandary as fundamentalists face today, namely that if the water covered the highest mountains to a depth of fifteen cubits that is an awful lot of water. If, however, (as Pseudo-Justin suggests) the Flood only affected the inhabited earth then the highest mountains would only refer to those mountains that were populated. If the majority of the population settled in valleys then that diminishes the problem even further. It is not a very convincing hypothesis but at the time faith carried more weight than it does today.

    Earnest

    "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Earnest,

    I agree with you that it used to be easier to give these sorts of explanations for people were predisposed to believe. So you are saying the argument went like this?: 'It says mountain, but it means only as far up the side of the mountain as people lived, and since people mostly lived in the valleys...'

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Seeker, that is what I understand but I don't want to misrepresent pseudo-Justin. I got the information from a book I have called the Legend of noah by Don Cameron Allen and it doesn't have much detail on this quote. I will check up the reference at the library tomorrow and let you know exactly what pseudo-Justin wrote.

    Earnest

    "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Seeker,

    You wrote: So 119 years, 11 months, and 3 1/2 weeks wasn't enough preaching. He needed that last day or two for return visits, huh.

    Yes, I think so. By so doing God may have intended to also illustrate the fact that He gives every one of us the opportunity to repent and accept His provision for our salvation right up until our last day of life.

    You wrote: Besides, that would mean Noah was keeping the wicked from heading for higher ground too. Nasty trick.

    The wicked had no time to head for higher ground. The Bible seems to say that the flood was primarily caused by "waters from the great deep" which "burst forth." I believe this probably refers to tidal waves which came from the Persian Gulf. I believe the land of Noah was far enough inland from the Gulf that it escaped the crashing force of those tidal waves but was, nonetheless, quickly and completely flooded with water, allowing no time for those outside the ark to move to higher ground.

    You wrote: The seaworthiness of all wooden ships is clearly not in question.

    Read Jan's article attempting to debunk the possibility that Genesis is describing a large local flood. You will see that is indeed part of what he is questioning.

    You wrote: It is the particular design of the ark that was so stupid. If God designed it, He made a shape guaranteed to fail.

    That is odd. I have always heard that the ark's 6 to 1 length to width size ratio is the perfect ratio for large seagoing vessels, and creates a vessel that is very stable and cannot be easily capsized. I have also heard that that this proportion of length to width continues to be used by navel architects.

    You wrote: If the flood was as cataclysmic as flood believers are forced to say it was (to make the mountains, freeze the arctic, destroy civilizations), the ark would have been in for a heck of a ride. ... The ark would have been in splinters in no time flat.

    You seem to forget that I do not believe Noah's flood covered the mountains and froze the arctic. I believe Noah's flood was a large inland flood which covered only the land of Noah, a "land" which may have been only 30 or 40 miles across.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    To Earnest:

    : I think the only point I would add to what I've already said is that you cannot have your cake and eat it. If you are going to maintain that the absence of an Egyptian Flood legend is evidence that there was no such flood, then you cannot reasonably maintain that the plethora of such legends elsewhere is not evidence of a Flood.

    Sure you can. The thesis is that the ubiquity of Flood legends is strong evidence in favor of a global Flood. But if the most long-lived of ancient civilizations had no Flood legend of its own, then that is an exception that tests the rule. In other words, an exception to a blanket rule falsifies the rule. At the very least, exceptions weaken the efficacy of rules in proving a case.

    Here is another angle: the Watchtower Society and other Fundamentalist groups imply by their claim of universality of Flood legends that these legends must have been passed down from the very first members of the tribe or nation that observed the events firsthand. But this fails to account for the demonstrated fact that legends often "cross-pollinate", i.e., travel from group to group, often with modifications. After a long enough time it becomes impossible to figure out just who influenced who. Furthermore, since the claim is that Noah and his immediate descendants told their descendants all about the Flood, and these descendants subsequently spread all around the globe, the implication is that every major group ought to have a Flood legend. Since Egypt did not, that again is the exception that tests the rule.

    Yet another point is that the lack of a global Flood legend in Egypt is consistent with such a legend being either extremely old, such as it would be if it were the result of the Black Sea flooding more than 7000 years ago, or being the product of local flooding somewhere in Mesopotamia. In the first case the legend could have been lost before Egypt became a civilization. In the second case, since the flooding catastrophe did not affect Egypt directly, and Egypt actually welcomed its annual floods, there would be little incentive for Egyptians to adopt an outside legend as their own.

    Note that the point of my arguments is not to disprove that a global Flood occurred by means of arguments about legends, but to show that arguments purporting to prove the historicity of such a Flood are built on sand.

    Finally, we know that the Watchtower Society and groups like it carefully avoid getting into detailed discussions like we're engaging in here, preferring to remain comfortably vague and fuzzy. That way no one thinks to question the group's authority.

    : I think the truth is that the legends or lack of them are circumstantial evidence and have to be read in conjunction with the geological record, ice core samples and the record of magnetic fluctuation in the earth's crust.

    An excellent point. How does one get that across to a group as insular and anti-intellectual as the JW leadership?

    AlanF

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Seeker,

    I have some good news and some bad news. The good news is that I found the reference to pseudo-Justin. It is contained in a treatise described as "Replies to the Orthodox" and is ascribed by Harnack to Diodorus of Tarsus. At any rate, there is little doubt it was written after the Council of Nicaea. It seems that he did not altogether concur with the idea of a limited flood but quite obviously there were some who did. The bad news is that I could not find an English translation and my school-boy Latin is a bit patchy so I leave the translation to the classical scholars in our midst :

    Quaest. XXXIV: Si, ut nonnulli dicunt, diluvium in omni terrae loco non fuit, sed in iis, quae tunc homines incolebant, quomodo verum est aquam evectam fuisse supra altissimos quosque montes quindecim cubitis ?

    Resp.: Verum esse non videtur non in omni loco diluvum exstitisse, nisi forte decliviora fuerunt loca, in quibus diluvium exstitit, caeteris terrae locis.

    In addition to this reference there were some exemptions by other early writers to the universality of the Flood :

    1. The earthly paradise was exempted by many, irrespective of its location on the top of a high mountain or elsewhere;
    2. The same must be said of the place in which Methuselah must have lived during the Flood according to the Septuagint reading;
    3. Augustine knows of writers who exempted the mountain Olympus from the Flood, though he himself does not agree with them.

    I would suggest that the lack of discussion on this subject in the writings of the early christians is simply because they knew so little of the physical earth they did not need to address these issues to the extent we do today. Nevertheless, it is interesting that they could make exceptions without offending tradition. Does this mean that your baptism is still valid if you were not entirely submerged at the time ?

    Earnest

    "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson

  • Seeker
    Seeker

    Earnest,

    Thank you very much for the follow-up and research. It does seem that there were a few people through history who rejected the global concept of a flood, to one degree or another. I wasn't aware of that, and find it interesting.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Hi Alan,

    You presented a strong case that "if the most long-lived of ancient civilizations [Egypt] had no Flood legend of its own, then that is an exception that tests the rule.

    I accepted your argument as I was not aware of anything to the contrary but I did have some reservations. As the account written by Moses was apparently passed down to him through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and as Jacob was a prominent ruler in Egypt and his descendants spent several hundred years there it seemed to me unreasonable that the account of the flood would not have rubbed off in one form or another.

    I did a bit of research on the subject and found there are at least two Egyptian myths which could be referring to the same flood as the other flood accounts in the Near East.

    The earliest myth concerns Atmu who was one of the first gods of the Egyptians. He was originally a local deity of Heliopolis and is depicted as sailing in the boat of Ra. The legend is that he let loose the waters of the great deep to overflow and drown everybody except those who were in his boat. There seems to be a link with Nu (god of the firmament and rain) as both are decribed as being father of the gods Shu and Tefnut (representing daylight and moisture respectively).

    The other flood account tells how Ra, being offended with his subjects, ordered the goddesses Hathor and Sekhmet (or Sekhet) to destroy them. When the world was filled with blood Ra relented and, being unable to stop the slaughter, flooded the world with beer which the two goddesses drank and so forgot their mission. Thus mankind was saved. If this is related to the Bible account it has combined the themes of destruction, flood and drunkenness in an order and severity different to the original.

    Again, according to Manetho the Egyptian historian, it was the god Thoth who set up the two columns in the Siriadic land before the Flood and inscribed the history of things past in order that the records should not be lost. Interestingly, Josephus writes in Antiquities of the Jews, Book 1, Chapter II, Section 3:

    "And that their [Seth's children's] inventions might not be lost before they were sufficiently known, upon Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed at one time by the force of fire, and at another time by the violence and quantity of water, they made two pillars; the one of brick, the other of stone: they inscribed their discoveries on them both, that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by the flood, the pillar of stone might remain, and exhibit those discoveries to mankind; and also inform them that there was another pillar of brick erected by them. Now this remains in the land of Syriad to this day."
    It would seem he has confused Seth with Thoth or else these are parallel accounts. What I do find interesting is that this pillar was apparently still standing in his day which would corroborate that the Egyptians believed a flood of some great magnitude had occurred.

    In addition, there may also be a faint recollection of the flood in the hieroglyph of the Bennu bird. This was 'Bah Bahn', meaning to flood or to water, followed by three parallel wave lines, the water symbol, indicating a link with a flood account. The Bennu was an emblem of the resurrection and sacred to the Egyptians. My very limited knowledge of hieroglyphics inclines me to associate this bird with the annual Nile flood but possibly the combination of symbols suggests something greater.

    I would reiterate that I consider these accounts of a flood as simply part of a larger picture and by no means conclusive proof of a global flood in themselves. Yet even if the origin of the biblical flood was limited to the flooding of the Mediterranean basin I would feel the apparent silence in Egypt inconsistent with the facts. I remain surprised there is so little but suggest Egypt is no longer an exception to the rule.

    Earnest

  • GWEEDO
    GWEEDO

    AC

    You wrote: You keep ignoring that water runs downhill. A 150 day flood requires an enclosed area.

    As COJ's comments which I posted pointed out, Mesopotamia has often been described as a "trough" by geologists because it is "enclosed" by areas of higher elevation on its north, east and west sides. If part of central Mesopotamia suddenly lost elevation due to a meteor impact, which some scientists have recently said may have caused Noah's flood, and tidal waves from the Persian Gulf brought on by that same meteor impact or another one accompanying it drowned the land of Noah, as some now understand the epic of Gilgamesh to say, then that three sided "trough" may have temporarily turned into a four sided trough, that is until the land of Noah recovered its previous elevation, and while doing so drained its flood waters back into the Persian Gulf from which they mainly came. Remember, the Bible does not say that it was just the 40 days of rain that were responsible for the flood. It tells us that it was also and probably primarily caused by "waters of the great deep" which "burst forth." (Gen. 7:11) I say, "probably primarily caused" because that is the first cause of the flood that is listed in Genesis.


    you sure forgot that good butt whippin' that AF gave you down in the space.com thread of yours.

    this stuff just ridiculous AC. Belongs in the land of the fairies

    keep makin stuff up....

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Having a bad day are you, Gweedo? You must be. Because no one has ever given me a "butt whipping" on this board. : )

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