So Tec you are proving my point. Adam and Eve WERE NOT TOTALLY WICKED....The way the Bible and the society paints them is that they chose Satan's side. Clearly they did not IF they are teaching their children about how wonderful God is. So why can't God forgive them? Looks to me like they are doing their best raising their kids to be God fearing, that they learned from their mistakes....
No Need For EdenTree Unless God Knew An Angle was...
by Sayswho 39 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
tec
But, Botzwana - who says they even tried to apologize and repent? Adam threw Eve under the bus when God confronted him about why he ate. And many of us would do the same, at least on the spot. Later, some of us would go back and try to take the blame that was ours and repent, asking forgiveness. But we have nothing saying that Adam ever tried to do this, or that he even felt it. Or that he ever even stopped blaming Eve and the snake for 'making' him do what he knew was wrong.
Plus, I don't think they chose Satan's side. I think they chose their own side.
I don't know that they were raising their kids to be God-fearing. But instead just raising their kids to reality, since God is not something someone told them about... God was someone they walked with and experienced. So they simply taught what they knew of God to their children. And again, God speaks to Cain, trying to warn him against what he was about to do, so He also made himself known. He wasn't absent. But like his father, Cain didn't listen. So Cain certainly didn't learn from his father's mistake.
Tammy
-
Finally-Free
I find it amusing that God pronounced all of his creation to be "very good" before it was even tested, only to have everything go to shit immediately afterwards.
Reminds me of my last plumbing project...
W
-
PSacramento
But the Snake aka Satan didn't lie did he? Adam and Eve did NOT die that day that they ate from the tree of knowledge and the God of the NT expells them from the Garden why? Because he was afraid that Adam and Eve would become like him! (I wish I had the scriptural quotes to add, sorry at work).
The meaning of that passage has been debated for centuries and the reason is that IF one is to take the bible literally then YES, They shoudl have died that way.
If one takes the story of Genesis as parable then of course the death on that day was them "dying to eden" on that day, which is what happened.
-
Soldier77
Oh okay, thanks PSac. I think I'm reading way too much and my brain needs to absorb this more.
-
PSacramento
Oh okay, thanks PSac. I think I'm reading way too much and my brain needs to absorb this more.
Dude, it is MORE than OK to question anyones version/interpretation of biblical passages.
We are afterall, just expressing our opinions.
-
Mad Sweeney
I think the key to not reading too much is to not read too much relative to the amount of time spent thinking over what you have read. Reading a lot is great, especially when you read a diversity of viewpoints on a particular subject, but until you stop reading for awhile and mentally digest it all, it can feel overwhelming.
The gnostic stuff is great to read, and it makes a lot more sense than the mainstream Christian view of things, but it isn't much more likely to be factual than the mainstream Bible. Everything written by man is simply a best guess at truth, even when we write our own thoughts and feelings. We gotta keep that in mind when trying to find truth in the written or spoken word.
This just popped into my head and may not make any sense, but here I go anyway:
Suppose I take you to the seashore and we're standing together on the beach. I tell you, "all that water out there is the ocean."
You then take a bucket, step out into the surf, and scoop out a bucketful of seawater. You turn and walk back to your cabin, set the bucket on a table, sit down beside it and stare intently inside.
Someone asks, "what are you doing?"
You answer, "I'm studying the ocean."
Are you really? No, you're not.
Now take this similar story. I show you a vast library containing all the writings in existence. Among them is a letter someone wrote a couple thousand years ago. Among other things it says, "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."
You then select sixty-six writings, check them out of that library, and bring them home. You put them on your table and study them intently.
Someone asks, "what are you doing?"
You answer, "I'm studying all scripture."
Are you really? No, you're not. What you're studying is no more 'all scripture inspired of God' than a bucket of seawater is 'the ocean.'
The moral of the story: Read everything. Only in the context of ALL is ANY of it inspired.
-
AGuest
Greetings, all (may you have peace!); I would like to weigh in, if I might? Thank you!
Anyone think that just maybe God (the real one) wants us to know good and bad like grownups so we can cease being a childlike race in need of threats and discipline?
He did and does, dear MS (peace to you!). At some point, Adam WOULD have been "like God"... knowing both good (life) AND bad (death). The problem is that the AUTHORITY to know both belonged to Him. HE would have given it to Adam and Eve when they were ready. Unfortunately, they jumped the gun and tried to TAKE what they didn't have AUTHORITY to: power over death. That authority was ultimately given to my Lord.
Can someone tell me why there was a tree of life if "God" created man to live forever?
It was by means of "eating" from this Tree... which Tree is Christ... that Adam and Eve lived, dear Soldier77 (peace to you, too!). It is how all who are immortal live, even angels, live. Psalm 78:25 Because HE is the Life. NO ONE, including angels... come to the Most Holy One of Israel... except THROUGH him. John 14:6 The only One who doesn't eat from this Tree is Christ himself, and his Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies.
What is the purpose of planting a tree of life if you're already created to live forever?
Adam and Eve lived "forever," only so long as they ate from the Tree of Life... Christ... dear one. So long as they did, they could not be destroyed (as spirits don't die, as does flesh - they must be destroyed). Once they were cut off FROM that Tree... FROM partaking of Christ... not only could and did their flesh begin to die... and did die... but their spirits can now be destroyed. Genesis 3:22, 23; Matthew 10:28
Sounds like we weren't created to live forever from the start and if Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life then they would receive life eternal.
Man (Adam) was created to live forever so long as he partook from the "True Vine". The same is true for all spirit being. The problem is the misunderstanding as to what it means to be "immortal." Humans believe that an "immortal" does not die... and that's correct: they don't die because they're not flesh (with its blood). Which does die. They CAN, however, be destroyed. Immortal is simply the opposite of mortal - something that does not DIE. In addition, immortals are not "bound" by flesh as mortals are. Thus, they don't have the same need to eat, sleep, drink, pee, poop, etc., as humans do. Humans come from the dust so their vessels... and all that it consumes... returns to the dust. Immortals, while they do eat and drink... don't require sleep and don't expel waste. Unlike our bodies, which only take certain nutrients from food/drink and then passes any excess (which is considered "waste) out... their bodies absorb ALL of the food and drink it consumes. Because such "food" is the "leaves" of the Tree of Life... i.e., the flesh of Christ... and their "drink" is his blood. These are TRUE food... and TRUE drink... because there is not waste. All of it is used by and beneficial to the life of the SPIRIT body. John 6:55; Matthew 15:17
I realize this all sounds strange, even fantasmagorical; I can share it, however, because I saw it: I saw all manner of spirit beings (seraphs) and they were "eating" something that was, like, "raining" down upon them. Somehow I came to know that it was "manna" (and I ashamedly admit that I immediately thought of dandruff and was initially repulsed - ). But as I watched, I saw that ALL that they ate was completely absorbed by their bodies. In turn, it immediately strengthened and enlivened them. And they were absolutely magnificent, as a result, every one of them.
Sounds like the demiurge that created this world was fallible and not God Almighty. He didn't create perfect beings. Everything in this world consumes and destroys.
You misunderstand "perfection," dear one. As many misunderstand "good"... and "bad." We are always trying to perceive and understand the Most Holy One of Israel by means of our puny, indeed tiny, human abilities. We are always trying to bring HIM down to our level of thinking, rather than trying to raise ourselves UP... to His. What you miss is that had He NOT created them with free will... THEN they would have been flawed! They were perfect, however... in that they had the CAPACITY to LOVE... perfectly. Which Eve could have shown... for God AND Adam... by not giving Adam the fruit to eat (and thus trying to take him to with her into disobedience and death)... and Adam could have shown... for God AND Eve... by not CHOOSING to disobey... as well as offering HIS perfect life in exchange for hers. That they CHOSE the course they did... was entirely on them - as free will agents - and not on God.
Sorry, I've been reading a lot about Gnosticism and the gnostic bible again....
Yes, well, you know what someone "wise" once wrote:
"To the making of many books there is no end and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh."
Sadly, although they hypocritically use it as to secular and other non-WTBTS books, no one at the WTBTS seems to get the point of that particular verse when it comes to all that THEY publish.
But the Snake aka Satan didn't lie did he? Adam and Eve did NOT die that day that they ate from the tree of knowledge
Again, another error in "our" thinking, based on the LIE told to us by others. "Satan" did indeed lie; however, the lie was NOT that Adam and Eve wouldn't die... but that they wouldn't STAY dead. He told them that they would be "like" God - knowing good (life) AND bad (death)... which they did come to know; however, UNLIKE God... they're still dead. He isn't. So, they are NOT like Him. Christ, however, IS: he, the Life... ALSO came to know bad (death)... and yet... lives... forever. Revelation 1:18
and the God of the NT expells them from the Garden why?
Because they showed that they couldn't be trusted to dwell there without causing harm: to themselves, one another, and others. They showed that they were SO power-hungry... that, with regard to THEM "Satan's" accusation of "skin in behalf of skin and ALL A MAN HAS HE WILL GIVE ON BEHALF OF HIS SOUL"... was TRUE. They could... and should... have answered that taunt by means of loyalty... borne out of love. They didn't. Christ, however, did. He made a reply to the one who has been taunting the Most Holy One of Israel even since Adam's act.
Because he was afraid that Adam and Eve would become like him! (I wish I had the scriptural quotes to add, sorry at work).
Afraid? No... and yes. Afraid as to any effect it would have on Him? No. Afraid as to any effect it would have on THEM... seeing as they were not yet ready for such responsibility... yes. I ask you: how long did Christ have to "learn" from God before HE was "ready"? Adam and Eve in no way came close to such a time of instruction and therefore, were by no mean ready.
So why can't God forgive them?
How do you say He didn't... hasn't... and won't, dear Botz (peace to you, as well!)? As dear PSacto (peace to you, dear one!) pointed out, He provided for them and their children. He even protected Cain when, by law, He should have demanded Cain's blood for Abel's. There is another false belief that Adam and Eve won't be resurrected - that is another lie. There is to be a resurrection... of the righteous AND the unrighteous. Since neither Adam nor Eve were destroyed by fire, since neither have been resurrected to judgment... that event must still occur. They must STILL stand before the throne.
There is also the assumption that they neither repented nor put their faith in Christ. On what are such assumptions based? It would seem to ME that, in light of the fact that (1) both Abel AND Seth knew about God and Christ, and (2) the Most Holy One of Israel is merciful and abundant in loving kindness... it would be premature and even judgmental of us to assume that there was and/or will be no mercy for Adam and Eve. The truth is that we simply have to wait and see how it turns out for them.
I hope this helps some of your thinking. I hope you will allow yourselves to TRULY let go of what you've been taught... by man... and return to the Source, Christ. Ask him, if you have questions or doubts. Have faith that he WILL hear... and answer you... if you are asking out of a clean heart and pure motive. If you're asking, however, so that you can write a book saying "Christ spoke to me," or be in/on the news... or to receive glory from men... or if you ask but doubt... well, you know what I would say next.
Again, peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
P.S. It wasn't a snake that spoke the Adam/Eve... and such speech wasn't through ventriloquism or some other such melarkey. It was Belial, the one called "Satan" and "Devil", who was ONE of the cherubs that was "covering" - i.e., supposed to protect the garden and its inhabitants - who, like all spirit beings, is a seraph: a fiery, flying, flesh-eating serpent. Which is not a snake. Snakes are from the physical realm; seraphs are spirit beings. Christ is not a snake; yet, he is tantamount to the "copper serpent" which Moses held up in the wilderness. They are seraphs, dear ones... not snakes. Again, peace to you!
-
WontLeave
In a nutshell, God is "jealous" and demands worship. In Eden, there were only 2 rules: Subdue the earth and don't eat from this tree. (I don't include "multiply" because leave me alone with a perfect, naked woman and that's going to happen, regardless.) Obedience was Adam and Eve's form of worship. If they'd had no boundaries at all, they would have had no opportunity to demonstrate obedience, respect, and submission to the(ir) Creator. Many believe God knew in advance what the outcome was going to be, but there is no scriptural support for this. I can't find any scriptural evidence that God is omniscient. Perhaps He knows everything that can be known and obviously He knows His purposes will come to pass, since He has the power to make them happen (knows from the beginning the finale), but I doubt this indicates foretelling the future or omniscience.
Having unfathomable intelligence, knowledge and wisdom, anything that the outcome can be calculated if all variables are known, God undoubtedly has the ability to anticipate. On the other hand, if people actually have free will, then we would have had to have been designed in a way that our thoughts and actions cannot only be the sum of chemical balances, genetics, life experience, and other variables or our sins could not be held against us. But if all the outside influences and things over which we have no control (genetics, upbringing, etc) make us who we are, then we are nothing but very complicated robots following a very complicated program.
-
DJPoetech
I love that WontLeave!!!
Makes me think of God planting this seed for this potential tree in the ground. He knows there is a portion that will remain under the soil but also that there is this portion that will rise above it and eventually feel His light.
The hardest part is the living plant breaking away from the dead shell.
I guess he is just watering us now.
DJP